Author Topic: Territory-class Characters?  (Read 9762 times)

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2012, 12:02:18 PM »
+1
Almost every high-tier deck utilizes a strategy to help prevent the opponent from being able to do anything during the Battle Phase. FBTNB is self-explanatory, TGT and Gardensciples use TGT, Disciples, in the mid-to-late game, use Thad; really, Genesis and some variations of Sam are the only very commonly used themes that don't have the intention - whether the user is conscious of it or not - to shut down a defense as the main strategy of the deck. I'm still not that experienced in the T2 meta, but in the T1 meta, most people already engage in "conflict avoidance" to win. Blind dislike of territory-class characters shows a distinct lack of imagination and fear that adding such an idea will inevitably break the game, despite the fact that territory class enhancements have struck a great balance between being useful without overpowered (though admittedly, these are the exception - most territory class enhancements aren't worth using at all).

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 12:11:27 PM »
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(though admittedly, these are the exception - most territory class enhancements aren't worth using at all).
Most likely, this is what will happen with TC characters.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline STAMP

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2012, 12:13:45 PM »
-2
That's an incredibly smart way of playing, and Sun Tzu is right.  I think more in Prep than I do in battle.  Most of the time, when I enter battle, I know exactly how it'll play out.  If I can restrict my opponent from making a rescue attempt, my defense is doing it's job.

It's how the "best" become the best.  Hall of Fame rallying cry - "We don't need no stinkin' battles!"

Blind dislike of territory-class characters shows a distinct lack of imagination and fear that adding such an idea will inevitably break the game, despite the fact that territory class enhancements have struck a great balance between being useful without overpowered (though admittedly, these are the exception - most territory class enhancements aren't worth using at all).

I'm guessing you weren't trying to make me laugh, but I'm rolling!  :rollin:
You, sir, are on my list of "faves" on the boards.  :)

I'm just a small voice out here in the NW wilderness.  ;)
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 12:19:24 PM »
+1
I'm confused why I'm making you laugh, but excited at the prospect of winning a medal or something.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2012, 12:25:08 PM »
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I'm confused why I'm making you laugh, but excited at the prospect of winning a medal or something.

When I read your post I was imagining walking into a NE tournament with a white cane and dark sunglasses acting all crotchety.  Then I thought of the irony that I had that much imagination.   ;D

You'll have to gain momentum to get into the medal round, though, as there are others you'll have to pass, e.g. YMT, MJB, Polarius, Kittens, etc.  ;)
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2012, 12:25:45 PM »
-1
most people already engage in "conflict avoidance" to win. Blind dislike of territory-class characters shows a distinct lack of imagination and fear that adding such an idea will inevitably break the game
Especially if TC characters were all ECs.  And if they were with abilities like "Cannot be ignored", which would decrease the conflict avoidance of TGT/Gardensciples.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2012, 12:27:40 PM »
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most people already engage in "conflict avoidance" to win. Blind dislike of territory-class characters shows a distinct lack of imagination and fear that adding such an idea will inevitably break the game
Especially if TC characters were all ECs.  And if they were with abilities like "Cannot be ignored", which would decrease the conflict avoidance of TGT/Gardensciples.

Exactly. There are some great, obvious ideas that would help balance out the meta (your example of Cannot Be Ignored abilities is perfect), on top of some really clever ideas ala Pol's Leviathan.

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2012, 12:28:10 PM »
0
Glad to see I'm making an impact somewhere, but I still don't understand why you don't like TCCs.  Could you rephrase your arguments for me?
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2012, 12:28:33 PM »
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most people already engage in "conflict avoidance" to win. Blind dislike of territory-class characters shows a distinct lack of imagination and fear that adding such an idea will inevitably break the game
Especially if TC characters were all ECs.  And if they were with abilities like "Cannot be ignored", which would decrease the conflict avoidance of TGT/Gardensciples.

We could finally unbreak TGT!

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2012, 12:29:03 PM »
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Glad to see I'm making an impact somewhere, but I still don't understand why you don't like TCCs.  Could you rephrase your arguments for me?

Who are you talking to?

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2012, 12:30:03 PM »
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Glad to see I'm making an impact somewhere, but I still don't understand why you don't like TCCs.  Could you rephrase your arguments for me?

Who are you talking to?
STAMP, I got instaposted.

most people already engage in "conflict avoidance" to win. Blind dislike of territory-class characters shows a distinct lack of imagination and fear that adding such an idea will inevitably break the game
Especially if TC characters were all ECs.  And if they were with abilities like "Cannot be ignored", which would decrease the conflict avoidance of TGT/Gardensciples.

We could finally unbreak TGT!
And break all the hosts minds when you negate the ability that allowed them to enter battle in the first place.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2012, 12:33:46 PM »
0


And break all the hosts minds when you negate the ability that allowed them to enter battle in the first place.
at which point you have the chance to actually do something to counter it unlike the current where if you don't have 2 ECs of the same brigade, hand them a soul.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2012, 12:57:31 PM »
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HELLO!!  TGT was designed to counter the broken defense Sir Nobody and others were using.  I can only assume by recent track record that any counter created for TGT will also break something else.  I'm a scientist, Jim!  I look at the data.  ;)
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2012, 02:02:04 PM »
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That's not the way Redemption works. Only offensive cards can break the game. The standalone defense was good, and it was centralizing, but it wasn't broken because it could never rescue a LS. TGT is great and centralizing and can win Lost Souls.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2012, 02:03:49 PM »
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That's not the way Redemption works. Only offensive cards can break the game. The standalone defense was good, and it was centralizing, but it wasn't broken because it could never rescue a LS. TGT is great and centralizing and can win Lost Souls.

Well that's just not true. If they release a 1/1 multi-brigade EC who's protected from opponents CBN, that is broken. Defensive cards can mostly definitely break the game.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2012, 02:15:35 PM »
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That really illustrates my point. You have to go to pretty ridiculous levels with evil to break the game. You don't have to get all that ridiculous on offense.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2012, 02:21:28 PM »
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That really illustrates my point. You have to go to pretty ridiculous levels with evil to break the game. You don't have to get all that ridiculous on offense.

Sure you do; look at what kinds of cards are broken, or at least overpowered right now. The theory behind TGT is that it would encourage people to play larger defenses, however, they gave TGT the ability to be played ridiculously fast, especially with Gardensciples, and as such, it's easy to draw and set up TGT before your opponent can set up their defense, and thus, it's strong. With Disciples, Thad could be balanced, except Disciples are so fast it's not hard to set up your Disciples in a handful of turns, allowing you to walk in. Angel Under the Oak is a CBN D2 with the ability to search for and produce a CBN protected 6/6 hero with access to a CBN battlewinner, along with searching for another hero that starts a large banding chain, who is theoretically overpowered all his own. It does take work for an offensive card to be broken.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2012, 02:31:12 PM »
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I see that as more the nature of offense, and further confirms my point. TGT isn't that ridiculous, but it's broken. Angel isn't that ridiculous, but it's broken. Can you point to any similar examples on defense?

Furthermore, anytime Evil gets anywhere near broken, it's stomped down next set. Creeping Deceiver was as near broken as evil gets last year, but this year they made Sites easy pickings and character negation all over the place. Same with Manasseh, and then we got an errata for Golgotha with the express purpose of making Manasseh weaker. TGT has been broken for years.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2012, 03:30:46 PM »
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HELLO!!  TGT was designed to counter the broken defense Sir Nobody and others were using.  I can only assume by recent track record that any counter created for TGT will also break something else.  I'm a scientist, Jim!  I look at the data.  ;)
You'll notice that there have been plenty of things created to counter TGT, and none of them were gamebreaking.  Golgatha maybe, but like Pol said, it was to stop Manny in T1 and ridiculous recursion in T2.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2012, 05:06:41 PM »
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HELLO!!  TGT was designed to counter the broken defense Sir Nobody and others were using.
It may have been, but it totally didn't work.  Sir Nobody's offense was WAY bigger than the most popular defense of today's top players (RDT's standalone).  Both Sir Nobody's and RDT's are standalone from a variety of brigades, so the problem hasn't improved, but gotten worse.

If we want people to play with defense, I am becoming more and more convinced that no cards that we make will change things significantly.  What we need is a longer time limit, or a gamerule that really hurts speed (like "Gifts of the Magi").

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2012, 05:09:04 PM »
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Seeded cards would work, too.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline STAMP

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2012, 05:44:37 PM »
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HELLO!!  TGT was designed to counter the broken defense Sir Nobody and others were using.
It may have been, but it totally didn't work.  Sir Nobody's offense was WAY bigger than the most popular defense of today's top players (RDT's standalone).  Both Sir Nobody's and RDT's are standalone from a variety of brigades, so the problem hasn't improved, but gotten worse.

If we want people to play with defense, I am becoming more and more convinced that no cards that we make will change things significantly.  What we need is a longer time limit, or a gamerule that really hurts speed (like "Gifts of the Magi").

So has anyone from the other side ever considered something new for the BATTLE phase?
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2012, 05:47:48 PM »
+2
HELLO!!  TGT was designed to counter the broken defense Sir Nobody and others were using.
It may have been, but it totally didn't work.  Sir Nobody's offense was WAY bigger than the most popular defense of today's top players (RDT's standalone).  Both Sir Nobody's and RDT's are standalone from a variety of brigades, so the problem hasn't improved, but gotten worse.

If we want people to play with defense, I am becoming more and more convinced that no cards that we make will change things significantly.  What we need is a longer time limit, or a gamerule that really hurts speed (like "Gifts of the Magi").

So has anyone from the other side ever considered something new for the BATTLE phase?

We get new cards for the battle phase every year. They're called Enhancements and Characters. Sometimes we ever get dominants.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2012, 06:29:19 PM »
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HELLO!!  TGT was designed to counter the broken defense Sir Nobody and others were using.
It may have been, but it totally didn't work.  Sir Nobody's offense was WAY bigger than the most popular defense of today's top players (RDT's standalone).  Both Sir Nobody's and RDT's are standalone from a variety of brigades, so the problem hasn't improved, but gotten worse.

If we want people to play with defense, I am becoming more and more convinced that no cards that we make will change things significantly.  What we need is a longer time limit, or a gamerule that really hurts speed (like "Gifts of the Magi").

So has anyone from the other side ever considered something new for the BATTLE phase?

We get new cards for the battle phase every year. They're called Enhancements and Characters. Sometimes we ever get dominants.

Women's - new card type, Site, activates in prep; can be used in battle phase (usually only multi-colored)
Warrior's - new card types, Artifact and Fortress, activate in the prep phase
Patriarch's - new card type, Covenant, activates in prep and battle (but rarely used in battle)
King's - new card classes, warrior and weapon, primarily used to pre-load in prep phase and hold
Priest's - new card type, Curse, evil version of Covenant (let's face it, they're both glorified Artifacts)
Thesaurus ex Preterus - new card class for enhancements, territory, activates in prep and discard phases

While I applaud the effort to make new card types and classes impactful for the battle phase, they've fallen short most of the time, while making the prep phase the "power" phase in the game.  LOL, before Warriors it was all about the back and forth battles, but they were considered boring because it was just numbers.  Warriors saved the game, but signaled the decline of the back and forth battle phase.  Side battles were the single best invention for the battle phase but were neutered because of brokenness.

Seriously, if I had a choice of "fixing" side battle brokenness (which promote lots of battling) versus TGT brokenness (which promotes solitaire), I'd take side battles everyday.
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Territory-class Characters?
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2012, 06:38:45 PM »
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The average deck contains less than 10 Territory class enhancements and artifacts. the majority of a players deck, and of the game, are still characters and enhancements that activate in the battle phase. Just because you can do a wider VARIETY of things during the prep phase does not mean you inherently do MORE in the prep phase. Most of my prep phases are spent putting down characters to send in to battle.

 


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