Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: Drrek on April 21, 2013, 12:00:55 PM

Quote from: browarod on April 21, 2013, 10:46:21 AM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on April 20, 2013, 11:57:46 PM

I can use it 6 times in T2 without even trying hard, so GG.

You can only have 2 of the cards in deck so once you redeem both how exactly would you do it 4 more times?

You could always use Book of Jashar

That would require 2 more cards than the original combo called for, BoJ and a blue hero. Also, you'd have to somehow get 7 more Heroes set aside after the first Smyrna Overcomes (as it returns all of them to discard, not just the 7). And even if you could get that far, that's still only twice more, not 4 times more, as you couldn't copy it more than twice (because, again, to copy each card more than once in a turn you'd have to get 7 more Heroes set aside after each BoJ resolves which would be even more difficult than getting 7 more after SO resolved).

I think you're missing the point.  Rescuing even 1 soul, by winning a defensive battle at relatively no cost, with a combo that can easily be searched out is not good.

I think you're missing the point.  Rescuing even 1 soul, by winning a defensive battle at relatively no cost, with a combo that can easily be searched out is not good.

You're right, wining a defensive battle is evil not good.

Quote from: JSB23 on April 21, 2013, 07:27:33 PM

Woah. This set is even more OP than the last one.

Which "last one" are you referring to?

I assume FooF/RoA 2

I thought he was referring to the combo...

He said this set, so I dunno how that would refer to the combo.

The identifier on Servant Angel should be: X=# of your Redeemed Souls.  And I would have to agree that while the cards look awesome, some of them seem way OP.

Just reiterating here what I said last page, we didn't have time to do playtesting (we were coming up with last minute card ideas right up until the release last Friday) so there's bound to be some cards that have too much power (and probably some with very little), though I think it's decently balanced in general.

Thank you. Everyone keep this in mind.

Some of the communities expectations and what the creator(s) were going for are different. When I was "proofing" these cards all I had time to do was fix incorrect wording on the special abilities. What you see here is essentially a first draft.

I always find it interesting how people think they can tell the power of a card simply by looking at it. In my last few years of play testing experience, I've found that actual playing with the cards often turns up different results than what was originally expected. This holds true for the comments I've seen by all the other play testers as well as my own expectations. Cards don't always work the same in practice as they do in theory. If that holds true for some of the games most experienced players, how much more so for the average player?

This is a beta set. The cards are untested and should be viewed that way. Unless people are actually testing them, comments about their power level don't have much value.

I don't understand the "rush" to get the cards out.  Lack of playtesting and review resulting in broken cards should be avoided at all costs, including timeliness; otherwise, I don't see the purpose in the expansion.

Daniel was the kingpin for the set and he picked a release date. I can't speak for anyone else, but as a grateful participant I was more than willing to abide by his deadline to the best of my ability. I'm not perfect, though, and with all the cards I myself created (only one of which shows up on your list of corrections, though Smyrna Conquers was on debate earlier, so that makes me feel a little better ) I didn't have much time to check other cards for balance, mostly just grammatical and wording fixes.

As of right now, this is a group of cards with (primarily) Revelations references that have been put to (awesome) art via Daniel's skills.  I guess I was thinking it would be a step beyond the normal "post card ideas on the New Card Ideas board for criticism" to "we've created these cards, and they've been proofed as to eliminated brokenness; we present them as Redemption-ready, for the betterment of the game".

That was generally the idea and while some proofing was done it wasn't the months and months (if not years) that the PTB has for each new set, nor did we get any actual playtesting done. Proofing cards in a vacuum is never as efficient as being able to play even 1 test game with them. (instaposted by Gabe)

There's no doubt some of these cards are (in all aspects of the word) "good" as Redemption cards, and most are very creative as well.  So props on that.  Are they to be critiqued further at this point?

By all means please do so. For me, I'm always willing to hear critiques of my work as I endeavor to better myself, and I'm sure the other card makers would also benefit from having more opinions on their cards (so that they can grow as creators as well).

Also, iirc, there was a hope at one point to turn this into an RTS expansion (not sure if that's still a goal) so any playtesting, proofing, balancing, etc. people want to do would only make that goal more attainable overall.

I agree with what you are saying generally, but there's definitely some level of power that obvious via text without testing. Profanation + Wrath is absurdly good. Letter to Smyrna is absurdly good. It's just obvious.

What seems obvious now turns out to be not so obvious when you consider the format in which we were creating these cards. We were using a collaborative Google spreadsheet with separate pages for reprints (such as Wrath) and new cards (such as Profanation). As such, even though you could read over all cards of one sort at a glance, there was still another whole page of other cards as well and that made it difficult to carry over thoughts between them. I created both Profanation (which is supposed to be a False Prophet support card) and the Wrath reprint (which was literally supposed to be an orange reprint with a slightly beefed up special ability) and I didn't even notice the interaction right away. In hindsight I'm not sure how I missed it, but I did and that's that. Nowhere to go from here but up.

That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

I think the cards look great. Nice job everyone.

I did notice a few "proofing" errors (some cards without X defined, various spelling and grammar errors, etc.), but I wouldn't be worried about the power level of most of them at all. The only card that I immediately thought of right away that would be broken is Nero's Realm. I also don't really like the idea of anything other than Lost Souls and captured characters being rescuable, but if done right, I could be ok with it. There are others that probably need fixing, but NR was the only one that I instantly thought of as being OP.

Most of all I like the card design. It has the classic Redemption feel with the added bonus of being able to see the full artwork. I don't like how some of the cards have the SA's and verses run into each other, but that may be unavoidable.

I also agree that there probably won't be any dual-brigade Angels anytime soon; that idea has been brought up many times in NCI and the playtesters' side, but overall the consensus is that Angels are always going to be mono-silver.

It would be cool if someone could make this an RTS expansion file (if the errors get cleaned up a bit). I would be willing to assist in that, but I haven't used the CEC in years (if that's even what is used anymore?). Then people could actually see what cards are broked and what cards aren't. 

I'm also curious how Fallen's defense will be zero 'quite often.' As far as I know, it will always count itself.

Letter to Philadelphia and Philadelphia Overcomes are both incredibly powerful. Protect all my NT heroes from the first EE played each battle or turn NJ into a second SoG? Yes, please.

BTW, Letter to Philadelphia protects from the first evil ability, therefore it will typically only protect from the EC.

Overall I'm pretty impressed with the Artwork and effort put into this, so great job Daniel and team. As aforementioned by many I did spot a few errors and OPness that I'm sure can be fixed with some play-testing which I'd gladly participate in.

Also, I really like the border-less Angel of Revelation.

As much as I want magicians to be powerful, Necromancer is just too much. Recurring ECs is next to impossible for a reason.

How is necromancer so powerful in the first place you get like what one or two uses out of him. His ability is powerful but in know way helps him win. He  might as well as that battle is concerned be going in without an ability. And how is give a def a super powerful card a bad thing. I though more def needed that.

As others have said all new card ideas are new card ideas we need to come from the perspective that they are not done deals.