Author Topic: Sea Into Dry Land (Read 5538 times)

Watchman · « **on:** September 01, 2017, 02:40:32 PM »

The reason for rainbow brigade is that this particular miracle was mentioned all throughout scripture in almost every book after Exodus, even into the New Testament. This moment has been used by many warriors, kings, priests, and so many other heroes during defining moments in their particular time as a rallying cry, a call to repentance, and a reminder of the power and love of God for Israel. In regards to blue brigade (contemporarily associated with Genesis heroes), it fits into this brigade as well as the Israelites of the Exodus are the first few generations after Jacob and his sons moved to Egypt. Silver can be represented as it's obviously a supernatural act.

The interrupt of an evil card symbolizes the inevitability of Israel being destroyed by Egypt but was interrupted by God when He used Moses to part the sea, providing a way of escape for Israel. The "interrupt an evil card" instead of interrupt the battle was chosen to get around cards like Wolves in Sheep's Clothing, which sits in territory. This would give the rescuer the option of either using it to interrupt a removal from battle ability, or when he has regular initiative and wants to get around a potential heretic defender.

The ignore ability was chosen as the Israelites ignored the Egyptians once a path was clear for the Israelites to get away from the Egyptians. The identifier of the number of evil brigades is dependent upon how many are in play as no evil brigade can prevent this event from happening.

The site access ability is pretty clear: God made a clear path through the sea to gain access to Arabia for Israel's inevitable encounter with Him.

The CBP modifier is for cards like Moses, Captain, and many other FBTN heroes to use, as well as to get around cards like King of Tyrus, Anti-Ignore LS and Pharaoh's Court.

I chose the ultra-rare border as I felt this could be a good candidate for an ultra-rare slot.

This would fit in with a future potential prophets-themed expansion, as well as all offenses, both past, present and future.

jesse · « **Reply #1 on:** September 01, 2017, 03:59:35 PM »

Very cool card! I like how you have thought it out Biblically too! Gameplay-wise I feel that the card is probably too strong though ( although I guess if it was an ultra-rare that could be OK)

Ironisaac · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2017, 04:06:41 PM »

Even if it was an ultra rare, it still feels to powerful, but I'm not sure how to fix it... maybe banish it to get the effect. This being used over and over again scares me.

Watchman · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2017, 04:07:05 PM »

Quote from: jesse on September 01, 2017, 03:59:35 PM

Very cool card! I like how you have thought it out Biblically too! Gameplay-wise I feel that the card is probably too strong though ( although I guess if it was an ultra-rare that could be OK)

Thanks Jesse. I feel it's balanced out with the ability being able to be interrupted and then prevented. It's also meant to be powerful due to the nature of the miracle, but not OP.

Watchman · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2017, 04:10:34 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on September 01, 2017, 04:06:41 PM

Even if it was an ultra rare, it still feels to powerful, but I'm not sure how to fix it... maybe banish it to get the effect. This being used over and over again scares me.

I think Woman with Child is pretty OP. That's why I love using it in all of my decks! But it has a few counters and balances as this card does too. Maybe make it 1/5 so Micah can't recur it.

BanjoMan · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2017, 04:22:59 PM »

Make it involve music for no reason and it's perfect.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2017, 04:38:45 PM »

The game definitely does not need a rainbow interrupt battle winner.

Watchman · « **Reply #7 on:** September 01, 2017, 05:02:07 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on September 01, 2017, 04:38:45 PM

The game definitely does not need a rainbow interrupt battle winner.

Why?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2017, 05:07:50 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on September 01, 2017, 05:02:07 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on September 01, 2017, 04:38:45 PM
The game definitely does not need a rainbow interrupt battle winner.

Why?

It raises the power level floor across the board. The card isn't over powered in a vacuum but it is still a universally high power level card. Universally high power level cards don't belong in rainbow. It is also an extremely generic and straightforward battle winner on top of that, which definitely does not belong in rainbow.

Redemption will require set rotation eventually but cards like this would just make it happen twice as fast.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2017, 05:14:39 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on September 01, 2017, 05:02:07 PM

Why?

Gabriel (I/J)
A Soldier's Prayer
Consider the Lillies
Plus a ton of other ways to recur this for every single rescue.

dermo4christ · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2017, 06:19:17 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on September 01, 2017, 05:14:39 PM

Quote from: Watchman492 on September 01, 2017, 05:02:07 PM

Why?

Gabriel (I/J)
A Soldier's Prayer
Consider the Lillies
Plus a ton of other ways to recur this for every single rescue.

Lillies can't get it back as it can only get a white N.T. card back. This card is OT.

Watchman · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2017, 07:22:08 PM »

Some good points brought up. I don't agree, however, that an ITB battle winning card doesn't belong in rainbow, especially since it can be negated and is an ultra-rare. Just as there has been no other card that could get a card back that was banished until Covenant of Prayer came along, this card could be a first-ever rainbow battle winner (Not Alone is close to one). Although I think Isaac's idea of it being banished would be good to keep it from being recurred as Isaac and Beers mentioned.

How about either/or of the following:

- keep it rainbow but add in "Interrupt an evil card. Banish this card to ignore..." and keep the rest of the original ability. The downside to this is it can't be targeted by a non-negate the last good enh evil enhancement, but still can be interrupted and/or negated by other cards. I like this idea the best though.

- keep the ability the same but make it green and white (and maybe also gold and teal) brigade with abilities 1/5 to prevent Micah recursion.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2017, 07:50:48 PM »

Rarity is not an excuse to print cards that are unhealthy for the game or even to print cards that are abnormally powerful. High level decks will have the cards that fit best in those decks whether they are common or UR and cards need to be balanced accordingly.

Forcing it to be single use does nothing to solve the problems the card has. The impact that has on the power level is irrelevant because the innate problem with this kind of card is that if it is good enough to see play, it's bad for the game and if it is weak enough that it sees no play, then it's pointless to print.

Making it one or two colors would eliminate the bad for the game aspect but green/white probably isn't the best as Faith of Moses Parents is an almost identical card already in white that doesn't get played (A testament to how stacked clay and white have gotten, which another issue that this card certainly would not help with) and green isn't much better in terms of needing interrupt battle winners.

Cards with several brigades on them and generic, straightforward battle winners are the kinds of cards Redemption needs the least right now. I just don't see any home for a card at all similar to this. Unless we start making more unique and single brigade cards, the future of the game is going to be nothing but slightly more refined versions of the same splash decks each year, followed by set rotation being implemented, followed by realizing that didn't solve the problem, followed (hopefully) by finally printing more unique and single brigade cards.

Watchman · « **Reply #13 on:** September 01, 2017, 11:59:01 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on September 01, 2017, 07:50:48 PM

Rarity is not an excuse to print cards that are unhealthy for the game or even to print cards that are abnormally powerful. High level decks will have the cards that fit best in those decks whether they are common or UR and cards need to be balanced accordingly.

Forcing it to be single use does nothing to solve the problems the card has. The impact that has on the power level is irrelevant because the innate problem with this kind of card is that if it is good enough to see play, it's bad for the game and if it is weak enough that it sees no play, then it's pointless to print.

Making it one or two colors would eliminate the bad for the game aspect but green/white probably isn't the best as Faith of Moses Parents is an almost identical card already in white that doesn't get played (A testament to how stacked clay and white have gotten, which another issue that this card certainly would not help with) and green isn't much better in terms of needing interrupt battle winners.

Cards with several brigades on them and generic, straightforward battle winners are the kinds of cards Redemption needs the least right now. I just don't see any home for a card at all similar to this. Unless we start making more unique and single brigade cards, the future of the game is going to be nothing but slightly more refined versions of the same splash decks each year, followed by set rotation being implemented, followed by realizing that didn't solve the problem, followed (hopefully) by finally printing more unique and single brigade cards.

That's quite a well-thought out response. Pretty straight forward and very authoritative sounding. Too bad the simplicity of "nice idea but how about this..." didn't find its way into your posts.

But yours is at least one man's opinion, even if that opinion is a little OP.

I think this is a card with great potential and needs a little tweaking, hence the positive responses/criticism given by others and the continued constructive feedback I'm seeking on its design. However, in my opinion, completely writing off a card idea and saying it has no place in the game isn't what's needed or good for the game or the Redemption community.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #14 on:** September 02, 2017, 01:26:22 AM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on September 01, 2017, 11:59:01 PM

That's quite a well-thought out response. Pretty straight forward and very authoritative sounding. Too bad the simplicity of "nice idea but how about this..." didn't find its way into your posts. But yours is at least one man's opinion, even if that opinion is a little OP. I think this is a card with great potential and needs a little tweaking, hence the positive responses/criticism given by others and the continued constructive feedback I'm seeking on its design. However, in my opinion, completely writing off a card idea and saying it has no place in the game isn't what's needed or good for the game or the Redemption community.

I apologize if you interpreted my tone as authoritative, I absolutely agree I am simply one opinion and I definitely do not expect that opinion to be taken as fact. To be completely honest however, this isn't really a new card idea. It is almost precisely the same card as a few that exist already other than it happens to be rainbow. Since it being rainbow is its only unique trait and given my aforementioned opinions on this type of rainbow card, I am genuinely at a loss as to any way this card idea could become printable without losing the only thing that makes it special.

Regarding positive feedback from others, all I see from others are opinions similar to mine, albeit with less words. Only a single post has contained an actual suggestion and that same post called the card scary.

Not every idea has merit to it and that's not necessarily a bad thing, it just means sometimes the best feedback is to come up with a different idea. If I posted an idea for a territory class rainbow enhancement that said "Draw 2 cards.", I shouldn't get any feedback other than people explaining to me why such a card should never exist. That feedback wouldn't be bad, it would be completely correct. I am not saying your card idea is as black and white as my example but the point is that sometimes card ideas just get scrapped. I'm sure any one of the playtesters can list countless cards they've thought of but had to scrap because they wouldn't have been good for the game.

On the brighter side, your thematic write up was definitely good and I like how you tied each gameplay attribute of the card to part of its theme. My constructive feedback is you should keep coming up with cool ideas and I have no doubt any good ability ideas you think of will have an awesome thematic side to go along with them

Xonathan · « **Reply #15 on:** September 02, 2017, 02:56:25 AM »

To me the brigade should be green for exodus heroes and the special ability should add the clause "if used by an Exodus Hero".

Watchman · « **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2017, 05:16:54 PM »

I tried to incorporate several suggestions from the community, and this is what I came up with.

- Made it single brigade (green) to fit with the prophets theme instead of rainbow
- Made it 1/5 so Micah can't recur it. I wanted to use the X variable for the strength but there was no option in the card creator for this.
- Realizing this card would not work on gold brigade Moses, I created a modifier that allowed for exclusive play on him instead of making it green/gold brigade so as not to expand the power of this card to other gold themed offenses that it really doesn't need to be used in. However, this could still be used in a judges theme since it can be played on gold Moses.
- Went with "negate an evil card" (NaEC) instead of an interrupt ability as green already has at least two interrupt battle-winners (Two Bears and Faith of Samuel), and only one NaEC--Blood of the Lamb--which is meant more for NT heroes. CoW Moses prevents it anyways. Thematically, it works a bit better anyways as God interrupted the Egyptians' advance on Israel and then prevented the Egyptians from further attack/pursuit by putting a cloud in front of them until Moses parted the sea
- Went with a set-aside ability instead of ignore as, to my knowledge, I haven't seen any prophets theme with a set-aside ability. I didn't want to do another shuffle ability as there are plenty of these for green enhancements.
- The cost-benefit of this card is obvious: however much of your offense you're willing to set-aside (now and/or future turns) is how long some of your opponent's defense (or yours, if you're so inclined to use this partially on yourself) will be set-aside. And perhaps you also want to get rid of some pesky TC EC (i.e., PoZ) for a few turns. Hopefully this is balanced enough and not too OP. Maybe it could just be "X Evil Characters in battle for X turns."
- The suggestions of "if used by an Exodus hero" and "regardless of protection" were combined for this part of the ability.
- Still wanted the site access ability as it and the interrupt/negate ability is pretty centrally themed to this miracle
- The CBP modifier was changed to be more restrictive to OT characters as this is, as Master Q put it, an iconic Exodus (and overall OT) event.

Feedback, please!

Anxiously awaiting Kevinthedude's seal of approval.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2017, 05:32:44 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on September 03, 2017, 05:16:54 PM

I tried to incorporate several suggestions from the community, and this is what I came up with.

- Made it single brigade (green) to fit with the prophets theme instead of rainbow
- Made it 1/5 so Micah can't recur it. I wanted to use the X variable for the strength but there was no option in the card creator for this.
- Realizing this card would not work on gold brigade Moses, I created a modifier that allowed for exclusive play on him instead of making it green/gold brigade so as not to expand the power of this card to other gold themed offenses that it really doesn't need to be used in. However, this could still be used in a judges theme since it can be played on gold Moses.
- Went with "negate an evil card" (NaEC) instead of an interrupt ability as green already has at least two interrupt battle-winners (Two Bears and Faith of Samuel), and only one NaEC--Blood of the Lamb--which is meant more for NT heroes. CoW Moses prevents it anyways. Thematically, it works a bit better anyways as God interrupted the Egyptians' advance on Israel and then prevented the Egyptians from further attack/pursuit by putting a cloud in front of them until Moses parted the sea
- Went with a set-aside ability instead of ignore as, to my knowledge, I haven't seen any prophets theme with a set-aside ability. I didn't want to do another shuffle ability as there are plenty of these for green enhancements.
- The cost-benefit of this card is obvious: however much of your offense you're willing to set-aside (now and/or future turns) is how long some of your opponent's defense (or yours, if you're so inclined to use this partially on yourself) will be set-aside. Hopefully this is balanced enough and not too OP. Maybe it could just be "X Evil Characters in battle for X turns."
- The suggestions of "if used by an Exodus hero" and "regardless of protection" were combined for this part of the ability.
- Still wanted the site access ability as it and the interrupt/negate ability is pretty centrally themed to this miracle
- The CBP modifier was changed to be more restrictive to OT characters as this is, as Master Q put it, an iconic Exodus (and overall OT) event.

Feedback, please!

Anxiously awaiting Kevinthedude's seal of approval.

Haha you don't need any approval seals from me. I have no complaints about this version of the card as far as game health is concerned. Having to temporarily get rid of cards from your hand is quite a cost and that might turn people off from playing the card though. It is certainly an interesting design and I like that it is both single brigade and playable in any green deck but gets better in a specific deck (Exodus focus)

Watchman · « **Reply #18 on:** September 03, 2017, 05:39:38 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on September 03, 2017, 05:32:44 PM

Haha you don't need any approval seals from me. I have no complaints about this version of the card as far as game health is concerned. Having to temporarily get rid of cards from your hand is quite a cost and that might turn people off from playing the card though. It is certainly an interesting design and I like that it is both single brigade and playable in any green deck but gets better in a specific deck (Exodus focus)

Thanks. Concerning the set-aside from hand, that's completely up to the attacker as to how many cards and for how long they'll be set aside. He alone controls that number. And it could be a hero or an enhancement you kept in your hand that won't work for some reason that you don't need, or perhaps an old GoYS that is no longer needed since Falling Away has already been used by your opponent; or maybe your opponent banished your SoG and you're stuck with NJ in your hand, or whatever.

I originally was going with a "reveal X good cards from hand to..." but I felt there just wasn't much of a cost-benefit with that. The limit though for ECs to be set-aside was 2 turns to balance it.

The Guardian · « **Reply #19 on:** September 03, 2017, 07:05:10 PM »

One small issue...the X does not have an initial amount that it represents. It should say "Set aside any number of good cards from hand for X turns..."

Then the X can equal "number of good cards set aside."

Otherwise you're kind of in a loop...

Watchman · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2017, 07:07:56 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on September 03, 2017, 07:05:10 PM

One small issue...the X does not have an initial amount that it represents. It should say "Set aside any number of good cards from hand for X turns..."

Then the X can equal "number of good cards set aside."

Otherwise you're kind of in a loop...

Good catch. I had that wording in the original revamping of this ability but it slipped my mind in the final version.

Updated image with corrected wording.

thecoolguy · « **Reply #21 on:** September 07, 2017, 10:35:16 AM »

white and gold involves music and its perfect

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Author Topic: Sea Into Dry Land (Read 5538 times)