Author Topic: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)  (Read 2570 times)

kariusvega

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Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« on: October 29, 2015, 09:46:34 PM »
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Pride (Multicolor Territory Class Evil Enhancement)

Place this on your evil character. While placed, this evil character gains the ability to taunt.

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 12:33:05 PM by kariusvega »

Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 03:56:21 AM »
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but what would the taunt ability be? the way taunt works is there is a ability that activates if the Taunt u successful. this doesnt really give a taunt ability.
これは現実の生活ですか。これはただのファンタジーですか。土地のスライドは、現実からの脱出でキャッチ。あなたの目を開きます。見て、空とを参照してください。私はちょうど貧しい少年、同情は要りませんので、私

Offline Josh

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 12:45:17 PM »
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but what would the taunt ability be? the way taunt works is there is a ability that activates if the Taunt u successful. this doesnt really give a taunt ability.

It would still allow you to activate that ECs ability and weapon, which is probably broken.  Taunting with emperors holding horses and playing Heavy Taxes so that your opponent can't present a hero?  Yes please.  Taunting with Hellenistic Jews or Phillies w/ horsies to play Wrath of Satan before a hero can be presented?  Very yes please.

I think "Arrogance" would be better than "Pride", and I think it should probably include a Prevent/Protect/Restrict to limit playing enhancements off of an unopposed Taunt.  Prevent is the easiest to do, but it won't stop Rabshakeh/2kh, Naaman with his horsies, etc.
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Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2015, 01:14:45 PM »
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however, there is still the ability of the taunt. if Goliath wins, he underdecks a hero. what would this card let them do when they win?
これは現実の生活ですか。これはただのファンタジーですか。土地のスライドは、現実からの脱出でキャッチ。あなたの目を開きます。見て、空とを参照してください。私はちょうど貧しい少年、同情は要りませんので、私

kariusvega

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2015, 09:26:19 PM »
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nothing, you win by being able to enter battle with an evil character instead of making a rescue attempt just like jm said i would love it lol
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 09:30:07 PM by kariusvega »

kariusvega

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2015, 10:16:51 PM »
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but what would the taunt ability be? the way taunt works is there is a ability that activates if the Taunt u successful. this doesnt really give a taunt ability.

It would still allow you to activate that ECs ability and weapon, which is probably broken.  Taunting with emperors holding horses and playing Heavy Taxes so that your opponent can't present a hero?  Yes please.  Taunting with Hellenistic Jews or Phillies w/ horsies to play Wrath of Satan before a hero can be presented?  Very yes please.

I think "Arrogance" would be better than "Pride", and I think it should probably include a Prevent/Protect/Restrict to limit playing enhancements off of an unopposed Taunt.  Prevent is the easiest to do, but it won't stop Rabshakeh/2kh, Naaman with his horsies, etc.

i agree that was the only other name i was thinking btw Arrogance reprint :)

kariusvega

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 01:18:50 PM »
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i would reallllly like this card does anyone feel like it is too strong to be real?

Offline Josh

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2015, 12:17:41 PM »
+1
i would reallllly like this card does anyone feel like it is too strong to be real?

This would take some time to figure out if it is broken, so that is why I would be in favor of taming it first.  It basically allows you to activate your EC ability (and weapon too) every turn, as long as your opponent doesn't fight or you win every Taunt.  There are a few big problems with this, in my opinion:

1. Playing evil enhancements prebattle.  Wrath of Satan is the worst offender, as they will probably only be able to challenge the Taunting EC from hand.  Hellenistic Jews paired with a Greek defense would just be a nightmare.
2. Every single future EC ability will have to consider this card before being finalized.  It's like the problem with Hidden Treasures:  Every Green prophet ever printed will now have to consider HT.  (See:  Samuel, Ezekiel, future Deborah, future Peter, etc.)
3. Evil banding. 

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If I was told by the PTB that I needed to make "Pride" be an evil enhancement that allowed an EC to Taunt, this is what I'd submit back to the PTB:

Pride - 0/0 multicolor TC EE
"Place on your human evil character for 3 turns:  Protect characters in play, hands, decks, and set-aside from other characters (except while a character is opposed), and that character may Taunt."

Reasons I like this:
1. Evil banding and playing prebattle EEs are both handled by protecting characters, except while a character is opposed.  I also think this represents "pride" well - the evil character fights on his own due to his pride.
2. Provides a counter to good banding that is different from Scattered, HHI, etc.
3. AUTO counter!
4. It terminates on its own after 3 turns to limit the potential brokenness.  This also leads to additional strategy:  Do I Taunt with my EC and activate its ability, thereby risking it dying, or do I keep it in territory to mess with my opponent's banding, preblock ignore/AoCP, etc.?
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kariusvega

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2015, 01:08:22 PM »
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i'm really thankful that you are just responding to this honestly i want this card so bad lol

1. cost

similarly to arrogance (the original print, which i have never seen play outside of my own experimenting), you do have to consider the cost.. which is mainly why i do not feel that it may be broken at all. crimson arrogance is simply too costly to be played effectively as a battle winning enhancement because chances are you only have 4 or 5 more that will need to be used wisely as blocks to win in t1 and it is limited to one copy in t2 being multi.

the cost in a t1 deck especially, as is, is an ee slot. sometimes ee's consist solely of battle winning enhancements. so that right there is one, on top of assuming that there is a play out of it, it is not for a lost soul, so the cards played in that battle would be for outer lying strategies which would also have to be shaped and are time consuming while realistically trying to get 5 lost souls before your opponent.

2. strategy

while yes it can be strategic to do nasty things, overall the intended strategy with being able to give any ec taunt is to be able to use their abilities while my heroes or opponent does not have lost souls to rescue, or when possibly i could generate a soul with an evil character to then turn in to a rescue attempt next turn.

3. playability

i feel like this card realistically in a t1 deck would see about a max of 3 turns played so either way with a limit or not i think it's basically just as playable in a deck with a realistic strategy on winning. same goes for t2 since it's multi it would be one of those king's pomp kind of cards where you may wind up debating on whether it makes the cut or not, but some players would find it very useful for being able to pick up occasional draws or plays between rescues.

4. brokenness

the biggest problems with auto- gideon, james-thad, and even tgt is that sometimes they leave you with the feeling that you can't do anything or that if you just had that (literally one card) to get a block you might. i like that this taunt allows evil characters to shape the terrain more where they may not be able to do so otherwise until challenged- in which case it's probably too late. i'm trying to contemplate the most broken combinations with this possibility and they pretty much are all basically variants of prevention where protection is too powerful to block. in that way i feel the brokenness is pretty balanced and therefore not necessarily broken at all. gives you the options to play your cards and move on rather than have to simply dc them since you may or may not have ever been challenged when you would have had the opportunity to do something.

5. worst case

worst case scenario you are using up evil cards not for blocking so that does open up your land of bondage to potential rescues, but on the other hand you can potentially knock out an entire offense with cards like wrath of satan, head of gold, great image, etc. assuming you can pull the horses or the band necessary to play first plus have placed Pride.. seems like about as much work as getting wheel on Michael with Angel's Sword + the enhancements to back it up and may be just as powerful. who knows!

glad to hear feedback regarding this card concept, i would love to see taunt become more playable! Goliath is sick, but he is the only ec that has Taunt!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 01:13:02 PM by kariusvega »

Offline Knoxyouthpastor

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2015, 01:34:57 PM »
+1
I would like to see more taunt characters as well. The added bonus of taunt with this card is nice. As is, I could see this ability being abused from both sides of a defense. 1)Chump blocks till I can get my combo to wipe out your entire offense and 2) Defensive heavy (especially Abom) to wipe out both your offense and defense and I walk in. In T2, this would kill without a limit, especially if I can play Wrath 4 times off of a horses. But I love the concept.
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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 08:51:30 PM »
+1
Not rescuing is a crazy high opportunity cost. Beyond which, ET+AoCP already exists (and doesn't have that cost, can't be negated if a block from hand still exists, and doesn't need a weapon) so clearly Wrath isn't broken. Emperors with horses and heavy taxes gets you a +6 hand advantage if you have all four pieces of the combo in exchange for burning a block and not rescuing. The real worst offender would be Manasseh chains, but even then I'd be surprised if anyone came up with a use for a taunt bestowment that didn't at best make up for its opportunity and complexity cost.
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 09:04:24 PM »
+1
Clearing an entire offense tends to be stronger than clearing a defense in type I, because people tend to play more heroes than ECs, and tend to place those heroes down to get hand size down, while keeping ECs in hand as long as possible.  Additionally, if you get rid of your opponent's entire defense, they can still win by rescuing souls before you get enough free souls to win, whereas if their entire offense is gone, they actually can't win.

Not being able to rescue is still a harsh cost, so I'm not sure this would be OP, but it certainly has potential, especially in a turtle locking deck.
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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 10:31:22 PM »
+1
Quote
people tend to play more heroes than ECs, and tend to place those heroes down to get hand size down, while keeping ECs in hand as long as possible
And maybe more cards that threaten an offense on your opponent's turn would make this more of an option to weigh than the optimal strategy in (darn near) every situation. Opposition number one is actually a point in favor!

Quote
Additionally, if you get rid of your opponent's entire defense, they can still win by rescuing souls before you get enough free souls to win, whereas if their entire offense is gone, they actually can't win.
Well darn, that's actually a valid point. Still, it's contingent on nobody including cards to protect their offense in territory (of which there are plenty, but not played because an offense is rarely threatened the way a defense is) and always dropping Heroes above any other hand management choice.

Since you made a good point, I'll make another one to hopefully keep the "taunt has to be heavily regulated" sentiment reeling: losing your entire defense means you won't have any more defense. Losing your entire offense can be rectified by Holy Grail. While normally I shy from using cards that are already far too widely-used in my pro arguments, in this case it's actually providing another calculation you have to make as opposed to an automatic decision. Do I convert that EC over there or do I sit on the Grail in case my offense gets taunted?
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

kariusvega

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 11:55:43 AM »
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i totally agree with you.. there are a dozen ways to recover from having all of your heroes discarded (chariot of fire, david's harp, retriever lost soul, healing with brass serpent, healing in malta, new covenant- mass healing)/protect them to begin with, but few ways to ever bring back multiple evil characters outside of tartaros/demons in general ie against et aocp

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 09:42:58 AM »
+2
In my T2 experience, losing my entire defense is almost always worse than losing my offence. If I don't have offence I can just wait a turn or two to get another hero, while my defense holds the line, if I lose my defense I have to hope I can either draw something new or can in by racing. I actually like the idea of hitting my opponent's offence like they can hit my defense. But this is just my first impression and I haven't considered everythi.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 12:06:10 PM »
+1
All I am saying is, if you make a splashable EE that enables any EC to taunt, you will need to consider that specific EE during the ability-creation process of every single EC afterwards.  Just like how every Green Prophet goes through a "Is this broken with Hidden Treasures?" thought process.  Samuel and Ezekiel don't negate play abilities because of anything specific to their Biblical stories, at least that I know or have heard of.

I'm not saying that every EC becomes broken if they can Taunt, or even that many, some, or a few ECs will be broken if they can taunt.  The PTB will just have to consider every EC's ability, in order to prevent a Thaddeus-type situation where an overpowered character gets printed.
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kariusvega

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2015, 12:32:39 PM »
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Here's the card image:


Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Pride (placed taunt evil enhancement)
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 01:33:43 AM »
+1
Except the paranoia over Hidden Treasures is not justified. We got a Teal/Green prophet after Ezekiel and nothing broke, and Sam was overpowered anyway. R&D should not be so terrified of potential combos, especially ones with huge opportunity cost baked into their design (in both the case of Pride and the unduly-doomsayed Samuel+SS you have to give up a turn of rescuing even before other self-balancing is calculated).
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