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Author Topic: How about "Jesus the Messiah"  (Read 4535 times)

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2013, 01:58:27 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on November 25, 2013, 10:54:07 AM
I will never support or agree with any decision that makes drought worse, which the SoG/NJ ruling most definitely did.
I disagree with this.  Before the rule change, your opponent could take away 2 of their own LSs with their SoG/NJ, now they can't.  So the current rule leaves 2 more available for you to take and therefore creates LESS soul drought.

Of course before the rule change you could take your own LSs with SoG/NJ, and now you can't.  So the current rule means you have to wait for 2 more souls to become available (or create them yourself).  That would lead to MORE soul drought.

Therefore in the end, it all balances out to have no change in the average soul drought.  In games where your opponent draws SoG/NJ early, the new rule helps alleviate soul drought.  In games where you draw SoG/NJ early, the new rule makes soul drought more of a problem.  But assuming 2 evenly paced decks, that is should be a 50/50 wash so again, there isn't a problem.

The only reason why you would "feel" like there is a problem more now would be if your decks were consistently drawing SoG/NJ before your opponent's decks were.
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browarod

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2013, 03:52:46 PM »
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Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2013, 01:58:27 PM
The only reason why you would "feel" like there is a problem more now would be if your decks were consistently drawing SoG/NJ before your opponent's decks were.
Most speed decks do, but since I know the prevailing feeling is that speed is bad and balanced is what people "should" be playing, I'll make my argument elsewhere.

Per your first three paragraphs, it's not an exact equality. Yes, your opponent cannot rescue 2 of the souls which means there are 2 more available, however you also cannot control your opponent's deck nearly as much as you can your own (insomuch as you can deck build more drawing, etc. to try and out your own souls faster if you want, whereas you can't control how your opponent built their deck). What does this mean? That you can pull 2 souls out of your own deck a lot more consistently than you can from your opponent's deck (or by giving them souls with soul gen). As such, the availability of 2 of your own souls under the old ruling is much higher/more consistent than the availability of 2 souls in your opponent's territory, meaning that under the new rule you have less of a chance at getting those 2 souls.

And this is only speaking on the 2 souls you get with dominants, not on the availability of the other 3 that you have to rescue via battle.

This is where I'm coming from with my stance that the ruling makes drought worse. Hopefully it makes sense, and you're still welcome to disagree, but this is where I stand. :P
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2013, 04:51:56 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on November 25, 2013, 03:52:46 PM
Hopefully it makes sense, and you're still welcome to disagree, but this is where I stand. :P
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.  But I would also like to point out that since this rule changed, there have also been some significant improvements to your ability to control your opponent having LSs to rescue (such as the printing of more soul-gen characters like Assyrian Survivor, Egyptian Cupbearer, and the 2 good territory enhancements that reveal the top 9 cards of opponent's decks to pull out the LSs).  I actually think that LS drought is currently the least problematic that it has ever been in the history of the game.
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browarod

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2013, 07:54:15 PM »
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I never said soul drought overall isn't better now, lol. I've only ever claimed that this specific ruling, by itself, did not improve it (and, in my opinion, made it worse). Yes, there have been cards recently that help with drought, but that doesn't mean that the ruling didn't make things worse, in fact it makes it impossible to really discern what impact the ruling had at all. You can't prove the impact X has on an experiment by comparing what happens when you introduce Y and Z because it contaminates the results.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2013, 04:51:56 PM
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.
I feel this is best at this point.
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Offline Josh

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2013, 12:51:22 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on November 25, 2013, 10:54:07 AM
Lost Soul drought is far and away the worst thing for Redemption (and the only thing that you can't hard counter without changes to game rules) so I will never support or agree with any decision that makes drought worse, which the SoG/NJ ruling most definitely did.

Actually, back in the day, the way to build a successful T1 deck was to speed to SoG/NJ and rescue two of your own LS, and thus soul-drought your opponent at the same time as gaining +2 redeemed souls.  Trust me, this rule change was one of the best ever instituted. 

And if you think about it logically, no matter what LoB SoG/NJ rescues two LS from, that is 2 fewer LS in play. 
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Offline keyboard7

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 01:53:17 PM »
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so if there is a drout and the player who would win dosnt want to becuse its a easy win and the player whos going to lose both want to restart can they
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browarod

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2013, 03:40:35 PM »
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Quote from: keyboard7 on November 26, 2013, 01:53:17 PM
so if there is a drout and the player who would win dosnt want to becuse its a easy win and the player whos going to lose both want to restart can they
In fun games you can pretty much do whatever you want, but there are no restarts in a tournament environment (that would mess up the time limits pretty badly).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 03:46:02 PM by browarod »
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Offline Red

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2013, 09:34:43 AM »
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Quote from: Zexal92 on November 27, 2013, 03:31:06 AM
Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2013, 01:58:27 PM
I disagree with this.  Before the rule change, your opponent could take away 2 of their own LSs with their SoG/NJ, now they can't.  So the current rule leaves 2 more available for you to take and therefore creates LESS soul drought.

...Sog/NJ + Burial = only 4 souls for Opponent to rescue, ergo, THEY COULD NOT WIN...

While on a philosophical standpoint, SoG/NJ SHOULD be able to at least rescue any LS, Gameplay-wise, This still leaves your opponent having to rescue ALL 5 remaining souls(If Burial had been errata'd instead), and that is not conductive for gameplay. I know of some "evil" people who can recur "protect souls from rescue" EVERY TURN! And he is the greatest Danye of all...
They have SoG/NJ as well. so therefore 5 lost souls to rescue.
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Offline DJWeb

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2013, 10:59:53 AM »
+1
Quote from: Red on November 27, 2013, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: Zexal92 on November 27, 2013, 03:31:06 AM
Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2013, 01:58:27 PM
I disagree with this.  Before the rule change, your opponent could take away 2 of their own LSs with their SoG/NJ, now they can't.  So the current rule leaves 2 more available for you to take and therefore creates LESS soul drought.

...Sog/NJ + Burial = only 4 souls for Opponent to rescue, ergo, THEY COULD NOT WIN...

While on a philosophical standpoint, SoG/NJ SHOULD be able to at least rescue any LS, Gameplay-wise, This still leaves your opponent having to rescue ALL 5 remaining souls(If Burial had been errata'd instead), and that is not conductive for gameplay. I know of some "evil" people who can recur "protect souls from rescue" EVERY TURN! And he is the greatest Danye of all...
They have SoG/NJ as well. so therefore 5 lost souls to rescue.

Not if I have Confusion
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2013, 01:12:07 PM »
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Quote from: DJWeb on November 27, 2013, 10:59:53 AM
Quote from: Red on November 27, 2013, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: Zexal92 on November 27, 2013, 03:31:06 AM
Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2013, 01:58:27 PM
I disagree with this.  Before the rule change, your opponent could take away 2 of their own LSs with their SoG/NJ, now they can't.  So the current rule leaves 2 more available for you to take and therefore creates LESS soul drought.

...Sog/NJ + Burial = only 4 souls for Opponent to rescue, ergo, THEY COULD NOT WIN...

While on a philosophical standpoint, SoG/NJ SHOULD be able to at least rescue any LS, Gameplay-wise, This still leaves your opponent having to rescue ALL 5 remaining souls(If Burial had been errata'd instead), and that is not conductive for gameplay. I know of some "evil" people who can recur "protect souls from rescue" EVERY TURN! And he is the greatest Danye of all...
They have SoG/NJ as well. so therefore 5 lost souls to rescue.

Not if I have Confusion

If you pulled off SOG/NJ/Burial/Confusion, you deserved to win IMO. Besides, soul generation is now a thing, so soul lockout is almost impossible now.
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Offline Drrek

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2013, 03:05:33 PM »
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Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 27, 2013, 01:12:07 PM
Quote from: DJWeb on November 27, 2013, 10:59:53 AM
Quote from: Red on November 27, 2013, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: Zexal92 on November 27, 2013, 03:31:06 AM
Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2013, 01:58:27 PM
I disagree with this.  Before the rule change, your opponent could take away 2 of their own LSs with their SoG/NJ, now they can't.  So the current rule leaves 2 more available for you to take and therefore creates LESS soul drought.

...Sog/NJ + Burial = only 4 souls for Opponent to rescue, ergo, THEY COULD NOT WIN...

While on a philosophical standpoint, SoG/NJ SHOULD be able to at least rescue any LS, Gameplay-wise, This still leaves your opponent having to rescue ALL 5 remaining souls(If Burial had been errata'd instead), and that is not conductive for gameplay. I know of some "evil" people who can recur "protect souls from rescue" EVERY TURN! And he is the greatest Danye of all...
They have SoG/NJ as well. so therefore 5 lost souls to rescue.

Not if I have Confusion

If you pulled off SOG/NJ/Burial/Confusion, you deserved to win IMO. Besides, soul generation is now a thing, so soul lockout is almost impossible now.

Soul lockout is most definitely not almost impossible now.  Its not easy, but its very possible to do.
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Offline New Raven BR

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2013, 03:35:12 PM »
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Quote from: Zexal92 on November 27, 2013, 01:50:57 PM
I was,(albeit a short time) did not have a NJ... so... yeah....
nice username!
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Offline DJWeb

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Re: How about "Jesus the Messiah"
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2013, 03:54:22 PM »
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Quote from: Drrek on November 27, 2013, 03:05:33 PM
Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 27, 2013, 01:12:07 PM
Quote from: DJWeb on November 27, 2013, 10:59:53 AM
Quote from: Red on November 27, 2013, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: Zexal92 on November 27, 2013, 03:31:06 AM
Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 25, 2013, 01:58:27 PM
I disagree with this.  Before the rule change, your opponent could take away 2 of their own LSs with their SoG/NJ, now they can't.  So the current rule leaves 2 more available for you to take and therefore creates LESS soul drought.

...Sog/NJ + Burial = only 4 souls for Opponent to rescue, ergo, THEY COULD NOT WIN...

While on a philosophical standpoint, SoG/NJ SHOULD be able to at least rescue any LS, Gameplay-wise, This still leaves your opponent having to rescue ALL 5 remaining souls(If Burial had been errata'd instead), and that is not conductive for gameplay. I know of some "evil" people who can recur "protect souls from rescue" EVERY TURN! And he is the greatest Danye of all...
They have SoG/NJ as well. so therefore 5 lost souls to rescue.

Not if I have Confusion

If you pulled off SOG/NJ/Burial/Confusion, you deserved to win IMO. Besides, soul generation is now a thing, so soul lockout is almost impossible now.

Soul lockout is most definitely not almost impossible now.  Its not easy, but its very possible to do.

Agreed. Stone Throwers banded to Evil Spawn (D deck) (e.g. Habitation of Demons); and a side battle with and emp, Washing Hands and King Shishak are a few (not too hard) ways to do this.
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