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Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 18, 2012, 04:54:34 PMIt's literally impossible for a purely reactive card to be OPSo you disagree that card games can have the Cobra Effect, but it can and does happen all the time in every card game in existence (look no further than the progression of abilities in Redemption). The premise that a 'reactive' card cannot be itself OP is very much incorrect. OP is based on what the card can do.
It's literally impossible for a purely reactive card to be OP
This is untold amounts of OP, especially since there are plenty of speed cards that don't give the user the option to not draw.
Also the wording on this card is a little weird right now, and I think the way its worded now it would actually stack with Rain becomes Dust, since it says when they use a drawing ability, not when they actually draw.
disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...
Quote from: jbeers285 on October 18, 2012, 07:19:40 PMdisagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right? That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.
However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.
And to whoever is doing it, there's no reason to scan through to find posts that disagree logically and -1 them Counter with your own case if you think it's warranted
Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PMHowever, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.
Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 18, 2012, 08:15:55 PMQuote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PMHowever, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitively
Quote from: Drrek on October 18, 2012, 08:25:29 PMQuote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 18, 2012, 08:15:55 PMQuote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PMHowever, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitivelyThis is the problem I'm hoping this card fixes. The fact that drawing is REQUIRED in every deck is a game flaw. As more drawing is added, other themes need to gain drawing to remain competitive. This trend absolutely needs to be broken.
The problem is it won't fix the dominance of speed, just shift it. Search is already becoming as popular as draw, and this only encourages it to be used all the more.
Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 07:38:46 PMQuote from: jbeers285 on October 18, 2012, 07:19:40 PMdisagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right? That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.I do understand your point, but you may want a better example than Alter of Ahaz. Altar has no guarantee of being drawn, especially before the doms are. This card has that guarantee. Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect). This card has less than 10 from my count, and most of those are in single themes and would choose the deck for you (Prophets) or are obscure/otherwise not useful.
Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).
My point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth.
QuoteAltar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?
Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 08:45:25 PMMy point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth.You're referring to specific cards that people use, not the entirety of an ability that has been printed into every theme in the past several sets. You're also referring to counters that are themselves subject to more counters, and which are dealt with more easily in competitive decks. These two situations are not comparable for those reasons.
Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 08:45:25 PMQuoteAltar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?AbimelechSiege ArmyBab SoldiersCaptured ArkChaldeansDesecrate the TempleDoNForest FireForeign SwordFortify SiteJoseph Before PharaohRazor1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card
Not following you in the least bit here. I don't know how much more clear I can make it to you that Alter is to Sog/NJ as RBD/Naz is to Mayhem, and the fact people will still continue to use powerful cards regardless of counters.
Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here.
Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 09:06:22 PMAbimelechSiege ArmyBab SoldiersCaptured ArkChaldeansDesecrate the TempleDoNForest FireForeign SwordFortify SiteJoseph Before PharaohRazor1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here.
AbimelechSiege ArmyBab SoldiersCaptured ArkChaldeansDesecrate the TempleDoNForest FireForeign SwordFortify SiteJoseph Before PharaohRazor1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card
Well then, if your going to just discount those cards (which were seen at Nats, by the by), then I can't wait to see what makes the cut as counters to the proposed card.
Still waiting on that list I played along and provided you a list, will you reciprocate?
