Author Topic: Lets counter speed, for real. (Read 13999 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #25 on:** October 18, 2012, 06:26:41 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 05:53:51 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 18, 2012, 04:54:34 PM
It's literally impossible for a purely reactive card to be OP

So you disagree that card games can have the Cobra Effect, but it can and does happen all the time in every card game in existence (look no further than the progression of abilities in Redemption). The premise that a 'reactive' card cannot be itself OP is very much incorrect. OP is based on what the card can do.

No doubt. CBN was the answer to FBTN, but ended up being a huge game design flaw.

I'm also still failing to see how anyone is 'losing' anything by choosing what one of your cards will be in your opening hand, a guaranteed turn 1 advantage no less. Lets see...I fine tuned my deck completely around this card while putting the meta on lock from turn 1. Yeah, advantage me.

lp670sv · « **Reply #26 on:** October 18, 2012, 06:38:22 PM »

This is untold amounts of OP, especially since there are plenty of speed cards that don't give the user the option to not draw.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #27 on:** October 18, 2012, 06:40:16 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on October 18, 2012, 06:38:22 PM

This is untold amounts of OP, especially since there are plenty of speed cards that don't give the user the option to not draw.

Such as?

Master KChief · « **Reply #28 on:** October 18, 2012, 06:44:04 PM »

Defense more specifically. There have been times I could have gotten a block with Damsel/SB/Vit but chose not to because RBD was up.

Drrek · « **Reply #29 on:** October 18, 2012, 06:54:49 PM »

Also the wording on this card is a little weird right now, and I think the way its worded now it would actually stack with Rain becomes Dust, since it says when they use a drawing ability, not when they actually draw.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #30 on:** October 18, 2012, 06:58:00 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on October 18, 2012, 06:54:49 PM

Also the wording on this card is a little weird right now, and I think the way its worded now it would actually stack with Rain becomes Dust, since it says when they use a drawing ability, not when they actually draw.

Ah, I didn't even think of that. I was trying to think of the cleanest way to word it so it targeted all players.

I'm open to rewording suggestions, as long as they have the same intended effect.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 18, 2012, 07:08:48 PM »

The more i have thought on this today the more i find myself agreeing with pol and lambo that this isnt OP for the reasons they expressed my original thought seems to me incorrect . . . yes some characters or cards require you to draw but, you dont have to put them in your deck . . that is a risk your taking when you put them in . . .this card would change the game for the better IMO

Master KChief · « **Reply #32 on:** October 18, 2012, 07:14:56 PM »

That's like saying don't put Sog/NJ in your deck just because Alter of Ahaz exists. -_-

jbeers285 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 18, 2012, 07:19:40 PM »

disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar and 2 bc its not going to be in play immediately 3 there are a ton of ways to get rid of altar including a dom

Master KChief · « **Reply #34 on:** October 18, 2012, 07:38:46 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on October 18, 2012, 07:19:40 PM

disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...

You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right?

That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.

Redoubter · « **Reply #35 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 07:38:46 PM

Quote from: jbeers285 on October 18, 2012, 07:19:40 PM
disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...

You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right? That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.

I do understand your point, but you may want a better example than Alter of Ahaz. Altar has no guarantee of being drawn, especially before the doms are. This card has that guarantee. Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect). This card has less than 10 from my count, and most of those are in single themes and would choose the deck for you (Prophets) or are obscure/otherwise not useful.

Rather, I would say that an example could be protection forts making it so no one plays territory destruction, which hasn't been the case.

However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.

And to whoever is doing it, there's no reason to scan through to find posts that disagree logically and -1 them

Counter with your own case if you think it's warranted

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #36 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:15:55 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PM

However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.

Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.

Quote

And to whoever is doing it, there's no reason to scan through to find posts that disagree logically and -1 them Counter with your own case if you think it's warranted

That was not me.

Drrek · « **Reply #37 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:25:29 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 18, 2012, 08:15:55 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PM
However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.

Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.

If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitively

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #38 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:30:25 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on October 18, 2012, 08:25:29 PM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 18, 2012, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PM
However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.

Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.

If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitively

This is the problem I'm hoping this card fixes. The fact that drawing is REQUIRED in every deck is a game flaw. As more drawing is added, other themes need to gain drawing to remain competitive. This trend absolutely needs to be broken.

Drrek · « **Reply #39 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:34:28 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 18, 2012, 08:30:25 PM

Quote from: Drrek on October 18, 2012, 08:25:29 PM
Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 18, 2012, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PM
However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.

Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.

If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitively

This is the problem I'm hoping this card fixes. The fact that drawing is REQUIRED in every deck is a game flaw. As more drawing is added, other themes need to gain drawing to remain competitive. This trend absolutely needs to be broken.

The problem is it won't fix the dominance of speed, just shift it. Search is already becoming as popular as draw, and this only encourages it to be used all the more.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #40 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:36:08 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on October 18, 2012, 08:34:28 PM

The problem is it won't fix the dominance of speed, just shift it. Search is already becoming as popular as draw, and this only encourages it to be used all the more.

Search/Exchange isn't nearly as bad in my opinion. When combined with drawing though? Yeah, then it becomes a major problem.

Master KChief · « **Reply #41 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:45:25 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 08:09:34 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 07:38:46 PM
Quote from: jbeers285 on October 18, 2012, 07:19:40 PM
disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...

You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right? That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.

I do understand your point, but you may want a better example than Alter of Ahaz. Altar has no guarantee of being drawn, especially before the doms are. This card has that guarantee. Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect). This card has less than 10 from my count, and most of those are in single themes and would choose the deck for you (Prophets) or are obscure/otherwise not useful.

My point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth. Until a vast majority of the meta starts maining these counters, people will continue to use these powerful cards because the rewards are far greater than the risk. Sure, Wastefulness guarantees you that first turn counter, but it's also a counter that has to be built around, which means very few decks are able to take advantage of it, which makes it even more rogue than the aforementioned counters. Again, I'd rather prepare for what I'm more likely to see in a best of 1 format rather than what I'm not.

Quote

Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).

I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?

Redoubter · « **Reply #42 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:06:22 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 08:45:25 PM

My point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth.

You're referring to specific cards that people use, not the entirety of an ability that has been printed into every theme in the past several sets. You're also referring to counters that are themselves subject to more counters, and which are dealt with more easily in competitive decks. These two situations are not comparable for those reasons.

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 08:45:25 PM

Quote
Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).

I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?

Abimelech
Siege Army
Bab Soldiers
Captured Ark
Chaldeans
Desecrate the Temple
DoN
Forest Fire
Foreign Sword
Fortify Site
Joseph Before Pharaoh
Razor

1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.

That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card

Master KChief · « **Reply #43 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:18:07 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 09:06:22 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 08:45:25 PM
My point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth.

You're referring to specific cards that people use, not the entirety of an ability that has been printed into every theme in the past several sets. You're also referring to counters that are themselves subject to more counters, and which are dealt with more easily in competitive decks. These two situations are not comparable for those reasons.

Not following you in the least bit here. I don't know how much more clear I can make it to you that Alter is to Sog/NJ as RBD/Naz is to Mayhem, and the fact people will still continue to use powerful cards regardless of counters.

Quote

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 08:45:25 PM
Quote
Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).

I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?

Abimelech
Siege Army
Bab Soldiers
Captured Ark
Chaldeans
Desecrate the Temple
DoN
Forest Fire
Foreign Sword
Fortify Site
Joseph Before Pharaoh
Razor

1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.

That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card

Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here.

Redoubter · « **Reply #44 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:23:30 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 09:18:07 PM

Not following you in the least bit here. I don't know how much more clear I can make it to you that Alter is to Sog/NJ as RBD/Naz is to Mayhem, and the fact people will still continue to use powerful cards regardless of counters.

You're not following me, it seems. I pointed out that you are referring to 'cards', and we're referring to 'abilities' (one of the most prevalent and promoted by Cactus in the sets to come out of late). That's a big difference. Another big difference is that the counters you mentioned have their own counters that get used.

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 09:18:07 PM

Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here.

If you are legitimately going to suggest that those cards don't see use (especially without backing that up), then there's little we can have in way of a discussion. Gotta be able to discuss it logically to have one of those

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #45 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:24:25 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on October 18, 2012, 09:18:07 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 09:06:22 PM
Abimelech
Siege Army
Bab Soldiers
Captured Ark
Chaldeans
Desecrate the Temple
DoN
Forest Fire
Foreign Sword
Fortify Site
Joseph Before Pharaoh
Razor

1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.

That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card

Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here.

Redoubter is spot on. Almost every deck in today's meta has at least one of those cards. I can't even count the number of times (there are way too many times) I have seen those cards played against me in Aug-Oct.

I am just going to assume you haven't played enough with the newer cards to see how these cards are proliferated in the meta.

Kirk

Master KChief · « **Reply #46 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:34:49 PM »

I'm sorry, but the meta is what? Dan, Fbtnb, TGT, Di? I'm not going to argue these 4 have at least one of those cards from the list, DoN and Captured Ark being the standouts as they fit in absolutely any deck. But certainly nowhere near the number provided.

If a deck contains any of those other situational and far more limited counters, then I'm not exactly worried as I know I'm not playing against Tier 1 meta.

Redoubter · « **Reply #47 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:37:13 PM »

Well then, if your going to just discount those cards (which were seen at Nats, by the by), then I can't wait to see what makes the cut as counters to the proposed card.

Still waiting on that list

I played along and provided you a list, will you reciprocate?

Master KChief · « **Reply #48 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:57:38 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on October 18, 2012, 09:37:13 PM

Well then, if your going to just discount those cards (which were seen at Nats, by the by), then I can't wait to see what makes the cut as counters to the proposed card.

First of all, let's make this very clear I'm referencing T1. Kirk is primarily T2, so perhaps he is lumping those cards in with the T2 meta. I'm strictly speaking T1 for all intents and purposes.

Two, just because you see some decks (as in, not the vast majority) using particular cards certainly does not in anyway make it meta. -_- You go to Nats, you prepare for the meta. You do not go expecting to see Fortify Site in over half the decks.

Quote

Still waiting on that list I played along and provided you a list, will you reciprocate?

Maybe you're confused, as I never proffered to provide a list of counters to Wastefulness in the first place?

I have yet to comment, much less show actual concern, on what counters are available to this card. That's an entirely different tangent I'm not even sure why you're challenging me on. What I did do was ask you for legit counters used in the meta against Alter since you so boldly claimed there are literally dozens of them, of which only 3 from your list are actually played in todays meta (2 if anyone besides Martin actually plays Fbtnb).

Redoubter · « **Reply #49 on:** October 18, 2012, 10:06:09 PM »

I'm always amazed how everyone "knows" the meta. At least until they get to Nats and someone introduces something new no one was planning for or complaining about all year

You specifically asked what was used. Those cards are all used. And the number of times you insist that every single person uses the exact same deck doesn't affect the fact that its not true

News:

Author Topic: Lets counter speed, for real. (Read 13999 times)

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