Author Topic: Heretic thoughts (Read 2632 times)

megamanlan · « **on:** May 18, 2012, 05:42:29 PM »

I've been working on some ideas for Heretics being involved with both Magicians and Demons, but having been running into a little trouble with too many cards with the same effect...

So I'm wanting to see what others think should be apart of a Heretic theme, I was thinking some good Capture cards and conversion cards too (mainly a Fort that converts Captured Heroes) along w/ some more LS Protection. But what do all of you out there think?

Red Wing · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2012, 05:48:49 PM »

I'd like to see Heretics have some different ways to wins battles other than just protecting LSs from rescue. If Heretics are ever going to become viable (in T1), that's one thing they'll definitely need. Capture and Conversion cards should work well, although Creeping Deceiver requires NT lost souls to be in sites and capturing is not something you'll want to do much of if playing with sites. But a fort that discards captured heroes would fix that problem.

megamanlan · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2012, 06:17:47 PM »

Actually here's my idea for my Fortress for them:
Synagogue of Satan
Evil Fortress
Rev. 2:9, Holds any # of Heretics, X = # of Heretics here.
Protect Heretics and Sites in territory from Discard. When you play a NT Site, Convert X Captured Heroes to Crimson Heretics. While Occupied, Good Exchange Abilities discard the target instead.

It would be making more use of the idea that was made when they created Asphenez (the one that Converts captured Heroes)
My thought would also make them very viable against TGT Decks and shut down Sam Decks by hurting the Angels in there (AwaSN and AuTO)

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2012, 06:46:33 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 18, 2012, 06:17:47 PM

Synagogue of Satan
Evil Fortress
Rev. 2:9, Holds any # of Heretics, X = # of Heretics here.
Protect Heretics and Sites in territory from Discard. When you play a NT Site, Convert X Captured Heroes to Crimson Heretics. While Occupied, Good Exchange Abilities discard the target instead.

OP, OP, OP. If you print any more Heretics, or just play T2, you can convert so many heroes it's not even funny and just stop all hope of rescues by your opponent (note conversion is not something heroes are protected against in territory). Oh, and out of battle, when they can't stop it. Discard is one thing to have like with GoS, but no fortress should ever have conversion. Also, evil conversion abilities are rare for a reason, and it should stay that way. Any printed should be very restrictive (i.e. 'if all your evil characters are heretics...').

And while I understand the desire to nerf exchange, I'd prefer to see that on a separate fortress/artifact (suggestions have been made in the past for one) that could be more splashable.

megamanlan · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2012, 07:06:59 PM »

Do note this is Captured Heroes, and Heretics currently aren't that good at that. I do understand the concern for there not to be Evil Converts but if there is going to be a bigger Heretic theme, the last thing we want is it to be based on Protect LS's from Rescue. Besides, this is practically stealing Asphenez's effect too.
(Also, that's a ruff draft... It'll be refined later on)
Besides most of the Heretics were convincing Christians to follow Heresies and fall away from the faith. So it would make sense making them also based on Capturing Christians and then 'converting' them to their cause. (And make no doubt this still happens today as well)

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2012, 07:10:54 PM »

Heretics are Crimson, the same color as Babylonians, who also happen to have the best mass-capture in the game (among other captures and soul manipulation). You pair them together with this fortress and horrible things start to happen. One of the problems I've always seen about Babs is that there are too many captured heroes and you can't soul drought at all. This card would solve all of those problems and, in T2 especially, cripple an opponent who couldn't place duplicates.

megamanlan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2012, 07:42:45 PM »

The point we are making is getting Heretics viable for T1 and for stand-alone Heretics. Look at it like this, Babs have 4 capture's (approx) and can recur one of them. Heretics themselves can only use one of them, but maybe I should have a limit...

Personally, I don't think there should be a decrease ability on a Fort either, but there is. Besides my point is to make them useful in T1 alone.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2012, 07:47:28 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 18, 2012, 07:42:45 PM

Besides my point is to make them useful in T1 alone.

If you hope White becomes more useful, you get TGT. We don't want any more overpowered fortresses, especially not game-breakers.

Also, don't forget Head of Gold is an X capture and you can get it off CBN with Babs alone, or use some tiny Heretic (say Creeping Deceiver to also protect souls) to play it, capture everyone in territories, and then die. And if you use some (like...Creeping Deceiver) you may not even have to surrender a soul.

megamanlan · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2012, 07:59:40 PM »

That's the idea of the limit, we don't have the card able to Convert 30-some Captured Characters. Head of Gold wouldn't be useful in the Heretic theme we are talking about, because lots of Heretic effects require only Heretics and the only Babylonian that may even be run in there is Babylon the Great, but that may not even be in there.

This isn't to make an OP Fort like TGT, but to make a Fort that is nasty like GoS (which is currently past insane and in my opinion is worse then TGT) to make Heretics useful, since they are not in T1. (I know that quite well since I tried to play them)

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2012, 08:14:19 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 18, 2012, 07:59:40 PM

This isn't to make an OP Fort like TGT, but to make a Fort that is nasty like GoS (which is currently past insane and in my opinion is worse then TGT) to make Heretics useful, since they are not in T1. (I know that quite well since I tried to play them)

Ok, seriously, if you think GoS is OP (and past TGT...you won't find much agreement there), then why make a card that is more powerful than it? By a lot?

Seriously, even if you only have 1 captured hero, converting a hero every time you place a site is is ridiculously more powerful than decreasing one character 6/6.

Quote from: megamanlan on May 18, 2012, 07:59:40 PM

lots of Heretic effects require only Heretics

Of the 4 currently in existence, 0 require only heretics. And 2 actually want you to have other colors/themes (Black/Greeks for Philetus and Gray for False Teacher). And those are great cards, I might add, just not enough quantity.

Quote from: megamanlan on May 18, 2012, 07:59:40 PM

the only Babylonian that may even be run in there is Babylon the Great, but that may not even be in there.

The...no SA? No, you'd have Soldiers (for the capture manipulation as well as being generic), Nebuchadnezzar (just too much fun in a Crimson deck not to), and Nergalsharezer (to use some horses + Head of Gold) just for starters.

megamanlan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2012, 10:04:33 AM »

We're not saying just currently, I'm saying adding a LOT more Heretics and make a real theme from them since there is more then enough to go from.
Also there are only 3 current Heretics, since both Annaias and Saffhira are not Heretics officially. The idea is make Heretics that keep you from running Babylonains in the deck. (like NT Jezebel, who would be a Heretic) this fortress would be a support for Heretics not Babylonians and would run NT Cards not OT Cards (so Negralshaleezar wouldn't be useful)

Also, I did think about what you are saying, so I changed it a bit,

Synagogue of Satan
Evil Fortress
Rev. 2:9, Holds up to 5 Heretics, X = # of Heretics here.
Protect Heretics from Decrease. When you play a NT Site and your Evil Humans are only Heretics, Convert X Captured Humans to Crimson Heretics.

Is there anything else people would like to see Heretics have?

I am Knot a Blonde! · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2012, 11:13:11 AM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 19, 2012, 10:04:33 AM

We're not saying just currently, I'm saying adding a LOT more Heretics and make a real theme from them since there is more then enough to go from.
Also there are only 3 current Heretics, since both Annaias and Saffhira are not Heretics officially. The idea is make Heretics that keep you from running Babylonains in the deck. (like NT Jezebel, who would be a Heretic) this fortress would be a support for Heretics not Babylonians and would run NT Cards not OT Cards (so Negralshaleezar wouldn't be useful)

Also, I did think about what you are saying, so I changed it a bit,

Synagogue of Satan

Evil Fortress
Rev. 2:9, Holds up to 5 Heretics, X = # of Heretics here.
Protect Heretics from Decrease. When you play a NT Site and your Evil Humans are only Heretics, Convert X Captured Humans to Crimson Heretics.

Is there anything else people would like to see Heretics have?

I like the protection from decrease. Honestly i think they just need more non-generic heretics. Considering there is only 1...

megamanlan · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2012, 11:38:44 AM »

There are more that John, Peter, Paul and Jude mention and even Jezebel who is a Heretic ( the NT one in Revelation) and Diotrophes in John's letters.

Cactus Game Design Message Boards

News:

Author Topic: Heretic thoughts (Read 2632 times)

megamanlan

Heretic thoughts

Red Wing

Re: Heretic thoughts

megamanlan

Re: Heretic thoughts

Redoubter

Re: Heretic thoughts

megamanlan

Re: Heretic thoughts

Redoubter

Re: Heretic thoughts

megamanlan

Re: Heretic thoughts

Redoubter

Re: Heretic thoughts

megamanlan

Re: Heretic thoughts

Redoubter

Re: Heretic thoughts

megamanlan

Re: Heretic thoughts

I am Knot a Blonde!

Re: Heretic thoughts

megamanlan

Re: Heretic thoughts