Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on December 09, 2009, 01:11:01 AM
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So tonight I thought up an idea for Goliath that is not only accurate, but fun.
Goliath: Black 10/10 WC: "When blocking, holder may withdraw all evil characters but Goliath from battle to force the opponent to withdraw all but one hero from battle, unless david is in battle."
Its accurate because Goliath fights alone, and the opponent gets to pick their "mightiest warrior"
I think its good for the game because its not an instant win card, but it can be very strong if used right. However it has the potential to backfire, which balances it out. Also, its optional so you can still use him in banding chains.
Im debating throwing CBP or CBN on the end, but idk if that would make it too strong. I'll make the card eventually, but I cant do it tonight, so I'm posting it here for feedback until then.
So... thoughts?
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Best ability yet....I like it!
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yup def want this
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isnt it basically a neutered 12fg?
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Instead of saying "unless David is in battle," I would say "Cannot be Negated if David is in battle.
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I agree with MKC... though creative, it is completely useless simply because 12fg is exactly the same (but better). I am of the opinion that Goliath should have a very nasty ability (maybe along the d/c theme of black) but then have a weakness against heroes with toughness */3 or less (so it includes David).
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I think you should add that he cannot be ignored, Goliath certainly was not able to be ignored. It would also make him a useful counter to pre-block ignore.
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"Goliath cannot be ignored while he remains in play. You may return all other characters in battle to their owners' territories but then must allow opponent to choose a new rescuer. Prevent banding abilities. Cannot be interrupted by a good card."
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isnt it basically a neutered 12fg?
Nope. This Goliath is better, since he forces heroes brought in by CBN bands (Gathering, TGT ladies, etc.) to withdraw. Also, it says "may" so that he could be added on to the Giant banding chain (and Saph/Lahmi/Ishbibenob may find their way back into most Philistine decks).
I think I like it as Lambo suggested. Making him unignorable would be a bit much, though it would be accurate.
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"Goliath cannot be ignored while he remains in play. You may return all other characters in battle to their owners' territories but then must allow opponent to choose a new rescuer. Prevent banding abilities. Cannot be interrupted by a good card."
:o me likey
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Instead of "in play," maybe "in territory" would be less OP. I probably went a little overboard with my idea, but I mean seriously, Goliath is like the most well-known Biblical character. We have to make him pretty good. Also, remember that he isn't generic, so no PO recursion for him.
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Instead of "in play," maybe "in territory" would be less OP. I probably went a little overboard with my idea, but I mean seriously, Goliath is like the most well-known Biblical character. We have to make him pretty good. Also, remember that he isn't generic, so no PO recursion for him.
you can still recur. Philly armor bearer XD
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Wow, duh, lol.
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isnt it basically a neutered 12fg?
Nope. This Goliath is better, since he forces heroes brought in by CBN bands (Gathering, TGT ladies, etc.) to withdraw. Also, it says "may" so that he could be added on to the Giant banding chain (and Saph/Lahmi/Ishbibenob may find their way back into most Philistine decks).
I think I like it as Lambo suggested. Making him unignorable would be a bit much, though it would be accurate.
personally, i'll take a card that can stop 99% of banding chains out there without a chance at being negated in favor of one that only stops 2 additional exceptions and can be negated. 12fg is the ultimate anti-band, and probably will be for years to come.
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personally, i'll take a card that can stop 99% of banding chains out there without a chance at being negated in favor of one that only stops 2 additional exceptions and can be negated. 12fg is the ultimate anti-band, and probably will be for years to come.
I'd take both. Philistines thrive on stopping banding, because they have big numbers and black has lots of negates. This Goliath complements the strategy, and adds an additional measure of usefulness without being overpowered (read: CBN). Perhaps I was too quick to suggest he is better, but the benefits he adds certainly make him unique and useful, and not a neutered TFG.
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I would add CBP. FBTN+Gathering should not stop Goliath. I'd also add Can't be ignored.
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I would add CBP. FBTN+Gathering should not stop Goliath.
Why not? Black already has plenty of weapons against FBTN, and Philistines are plenty strong.
I'd also add Can't be ignored.
Considering Philistines already has one of the best counters to TGT in Outpost (at least in my experience), I don't know if they should get one of the CBIg characters that is most likely coming in the next set.
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That second part I liked because of biblical accuracy. None of them could ignore Goliath's size, cept David. And Idk on the CBP, I'd just hate to have Goliath take a back seat to 12FG
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12fg should have been printed as goliath, imo.
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but I mean seriously, Goliath is like the most well-known Biblical character.
Nope, that's Jesus. ::)
LOVE THE IDEA! Good work man! This goes well with black's "negate" theme, although it doesn't negate it basically does. I do kind of like the idea of withdrawing ALL heroes and then letting them put in a new hero... that goes well with how it actually worked out in the Bible.
Please make this card playtesters! With the cannot be ignored status, he solved the two main issues in the "what do you want to see" thread: pre-block ignore and a new goliath.
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Yay, a fan! :D
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Considering Philistines already has one of the best counters to TGT in Outpost (at least in my experience), I don't know if they should get one of the CBIg characters that is most likely coming in the next set.
I agree with "the other Prof" :)
Outpost really kills TGT because you can just get a couple guys out of your deck/discard pile and put them in you territory, and then block with one of them. Philly's don't need CBIg.
I like the idea of kicking all the heroes back to their territory, and making your opponent attack with someone else. I would even add CBN to that. It would make a great character to shut down huge banding chains/FBN banding chains in T1-mp. Of course all the people who would use this EC in a T1-mp deck would be playing booster so it wouldn't help :)
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"Goliath cannot be ignored while he remains in play. You may return all other characters in battle to their owners' territories but then must allow opponent to choose a new rescuer. Prevent banding abilities. Cannot be interrupted by a good card."
I dont like this one as much... because they get to redo their entire RA basicly, wheras with mine, they are forced to pick one from ONLY the heroes in battle. The version above would be useless because if they didnt RA with ET, they could then pick ET and play AoCP before you do anything. I don't want them to reactivate their SA's after I've blocked.
I do however like the cannot be ignored idea, and I may put CBP on there.
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How many people REALLY use pre-block ignore? I don't think that makes him broken AT ALL. The main pre-block ignore is Garden Tomb. So basically cards that discard fortresses are almost as effective as cards that cannot be ignored; it's almost the same thing, I'd say discarding a fortress (or negating it) is better... being unignorable is NOT broken.
Prof, you can only use Outpost once each time you are attacked. Otherwise it'd be broken.
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Prof, you can only use Outpost once each time you are attacked. Otherwise it'd be broken.
This is true; the "other prof's" reason is slightly incorrect. The real reason PO can dominate TGT is that all you ever need to have in your territory is two black characters. Consider the following:
There are a few main ways that people who use TGT get rid of the EC's in your territory. These are:
-Holy Grail--Your opponent can only convert one of your guys on a turn. If they do so, they attack with a TGT hero, you use PO to get out another guy, and you can block.
-Jephthah--Now your opponent can get rid of both of the Phillies in a territory. Oh snap. But wait, Jephthah is not a TGT hero. So you use PO to get out another guy, and you can block.
-ET/AoC--Same case as Jephthah. The nice thing is, no self-respecting TGT deck has any purple or red enhancements besides AoC (and maybe reach). So when you block one of these guys, you almost always win the battle. And with PO/Armorbearer any Philistine is recurrable if you can afford the cost.
-Women as Snares--This one can be a bit tricky, you just have to watch what you do when you attack. If you use Lot's Wife, you can still ensure that you'll have at least one black EC in your territory, and PO can provide the second.
I have a Philistine deck that went 8-1 vs. TGT decks, with the one loss being a one-turn difference that would have gone the other way had I made a slightly better play. PO is one of the best TGT counters in the game, and is just awesome in general.
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(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi189.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz18%2FLambo_Diablo_Svtt%2FGoliath.jpg&hash=cb429abe01c6879cdab0ae88418ce06253a6deb9)
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Nitpicks on the SA:
"the opponent" should just be "opponent".
"david" should be "David"
"Cannot be ignored" should be at the beginning. "Cannot be ignored or prevented" just sounds awkward.
Else, I think it's awesome. Biblically accurate, unique, not OP'd, but still very usable. Still unsure about the CBP, but it's better than CBN or CBI I suppose.
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I put CBP because he was such a strong guy, you couldnt really stop him until you were fighting him. Also, for gameplay reasons, it makes him awesome against FBTN.
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"Cannot be Ignored" needs "while in play."
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Temple of Dagon + Altar of Dagon + PO = no problem with Holy Grail, Women as Snares, Garden Tomb, Luke/John heroes, etc.
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"Cannot be Ignored" needs "while in play."
Oops, that is true.
Also, I saw Bryon had posted, hoping he'd say something about suggesting the card for the next set or something awesome like that, but my hopes were crushed when he didnt even say anything about my card. :'(
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i would totally vote this card into the next set, if cactus ever allowed such a thing. goliath needs a revamp, and his revamp needs to be BEAST. this totally does that.
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I agree that version of Goliath is pretty much 12FG, but without the steroids. My version isn't any better now that I think about it. Although this idea is accurate, it really doesn't help anything because people will likely just use 12FG instead (since you probably don't need two characters to fight banding chains, which are dying anyway). Maybe we could try something liek this:
"Goliath cannot be ignored while he remains in play. If one hero is in battle, negate banding abilities. If more than one hero is in battle, you may band to a warrior class Philistine. Cannot be Prevented by a good card."
That isn't quite as accurate, but I'm just brainstorming right now.
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it doesnt need to be spot-on accurate. personally, i think evil has been long overdue for a captain of the host equivalent, and i think goliath could fit that well. 10/10, phillies can band to him...i like it.
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Prof, you can only use Outpost once each time you are attacked. Otherwise it'd be broken.
Oops. Thanks for the clarification. I haven't used this card yet myself and misunderstood it. Actually I'm really glad to hear this.
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hezekiahs signet ring = outpost fail.
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Goliath cannot be ignored while he remains in play. If one hero is in battle, negate banding abilities. If more than one hero is in battle, you may band to a warrior class Philistine. Cannot be Prevented by a good card.
I REALLY like the idea of cards that do something, but if a requirement is met, do something entirely different.
Also, Goliath should be this:
If Goliath is in battle with Red brigade non-warrior class David and opponent plays both David's Sling and Five Smooth Stones, holder immediately loses the game.
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...but what would be the point of playing goliath over any other 10/10 black evil character without a hindrance like that?
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"Cannot be Ignored" needs "while in play."
Oops, that is true.
Also, I saw Bryon had posted, hoping he'd say something about suggesting the card for the next set or something awesome like that, but my hopes were crushed when he didnt even say anything about my card. :'(
I really like your card idea. I find nothing wrong with a culture having some redundnacy in the special ability department. Most TCGames have multiple cards with the same ability in the same theme/culture, and it works. Cultures have their own strengths and weaknesses that way. It is easy for a banding deck to deal with ONE character like this (Angel of the Lord, etc.), but having to deal with two characters with similar abilities would be more of a challenge. You can expect that my vote will go for a "negate all banding"-type ability similar to yours when Goliath is eventually made. I also have a totally unique function planned for his identifier, but he isn't currently on the 2010 list.
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everybody already has to deal with 2 or more of a character with the same abilities when it comes to phillistines.
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hezekiahs signet ring = outpost fail.
not against philly armor bearer or philly priests
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i was talking about phillistine outpost, not armorbearer or priests. signet ring completely shuts down phillistine outpost.
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i was talking about phillistine outpost, not armorbearer or priests. signet ring completely shuts down phillistine outpost.
Yeah it really does trust me lol.
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I was under the impression that Philistine Armorbearer worked JUST like a search ability, and therefore was considered one. I guess I always figured that even though it doesn't SAY search, that's it's implied, and is still basically what you're doing. Is this not the case?
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Its an exchange ability. Just as perpetual priesthood does not band.
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So even though you still have to search your deck for the card, it doesn't count as searching because of the wording? Just making sure I'm clear on this.
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To my knowledge. I am not 100% sure.
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Its an exchange ability. Just as perpetual priesthood does not band.
+1 it says exchange on the card. not search