Author Topic: Four Color David (Read 18769 times)

Gabe · « **on:** April 21, 2012, 01:11:39 AM »

I don't know that Redemption will ever print a 4 color Hero, but if we do, David is the most likely candidate. I tried to tie a part of his ability to each of his attributes.

Red Warrior - Discard a Philistine. (He killed many, not just Goliath)
Purple Royalty - Ignore evil royalty. (Other kings were not able to oppose him)
White Musician - Hold David's Harp and negate demons when it's active. (He played the harp to ease Saul's torment)
Green Prophet - Restrict N.T. Enhancements. (He lived and prophesied during the O.T., this also keeps Hidden Treasures interaction in check)

Leaders typically band to their followers so he's able to band to David's Mighty Men. I'm sure that's OP in addition to everything else.

This is the best high quality piece of art I could find. I'm not entirely happy with it though.

Borderless because it looks better.

4/23 - Replaced the original with a modified version based on some of the ideas presented in the discussion. I also created this "flip" version of David based on player ideas and concerns about the original being over powered.

Chris · « **Reply #1 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:37:29 AM »

That image doesn't work. Is it in a private folder?

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** April 21, 2012, 09:14:59 AM »

Quote from: Chris on April 21, 2012, 01:37:29 AM

That image doesn't work. Is it in a private folder?

Thank you, Chris. Apparently I missed the warning that renaming the album would break all links.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #3 on:** April 21, 2012, 09:20:39 AM »

He is definitely OP, but then again, so was David.

The M · « **Reply #4 on:** April 21, 2012, 09:23:23 AM »

He will be added to the FBTN banding chain, kill many defenses, and can use hidden treasures.
No me gusta.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #5 on:** April 21, 2012, 11:41:04 AM »

I really like him, and i don't think hes that overly OP. yea hes good, but far from invincible. he doesn't make his big numbers make him vulnerable to kill cards and his ability is fully negate-able. i love him holding davids harp, it gets a good old card some more play and sets up a cool combo (david gets discarded, puts himself and davids harp on top of deck, but then you only get to draw 1 new card next turn so its balanced) it would be interesting to see what kind of decks he would fit into, he would be good in sam decks, but could fit into almost any deck other that blue of NT themes. to make him less powerful, maybe make him negate fortresses so that obadiahs cave, davids throne, and musicians chambers dont help him

Wings of Music · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2012, 12:24:10 PM »

Step 1: Activate Peter's curse and place on David

Step 2: Activate Hidden treasures

Step 3: Prophet

see what I did there?

P.S.

~~Chronic~~ Chris, what's with the username change?

Arrthoa · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2012, 12:28:13 PM »

Helps out Sam decks by allowing them to do another draw 2 off sam not to mention he is I Samuel so Sam can band to him. Would prefer if a card was made for each one like I believe Pol did

Chris · « **Reply #8 on:** April 21, 2012, 12:34:07 PM »

I don't like Pol's idea of printing four Davids, however, this David definitely needs to be stripped down. I would take out the ability to hold David's Harp and make him negate play abilities (without making him CBN [which is overpowered], AoCp abuse with HT would be ridiculous).

Edit: Wings of Music, I am trying to get away from that online tag, and I figure enough people know me in real life here that I can just use my real name.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #9 on:** April 21, 2012, 12:57:22 PM »

Quote from: Chris on April 21, 2012, 12:34:07 PM

I don't like Pol's idea of printing four Davids, however, this David definitely needs to be stripped down. I would take out the ability to hold David's Harp and make him negate play abilities (without making him CBN [which is overpowered], AoCp abuse with HT would be ridiculous).

I'm not sure what is worse negate play abilities CBN or allowing for play-first combos after David is negated. As noted in my above post, if you don't make David CBN there would still be easy ways to make AoCp playable on him. (Peter's curse, Tower of Thebez, provisions + FBTN character etc.)

Quote from: Chris on April 21, 2012, 12:34:07 PM

Edit: Wings of Music, I am trying to get away from that online tag, and I figure enough people know me in real life here that I can just use my real name.

Fair enough.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:09:13 PM »

Extremely OP. Any four-color David will by necessity be OP unless he's loaded up with CBN SA's that hurt him.

Chris · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:14:54 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 21, 2012, 01:09:13 PM

Extremely OP. Any four-color David will by necessity be OP unless he's loaded up with CBN SA's that hurt him.

Not necessarily, especially since it would be perfectly possible to build a mini-theme around him. Reprint a few heroes that need to be reprinted (Bathsheba, King Saul, Jonathan, etc). My problem with printing David as four heroes is that David was not four people.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:30:18 PM »

That's a rather flimsy reason. King Saul isn't two people and we have two of him.

David is the most famous King in the Bible, the most famous Musician in the Bible, the most famous Warrior in the Bible, and pretty much only his prophetic aspect is little-known. To try to squeeze all three of these aspects into one card, and with room left over for prophecy is pretty impossible without either making the card OP or failing to do justice.

Chris · « **Reply #13 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:34:27 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 21, 2012, 01:30:18 PM

That's a rather flimsy reason. King Saul isn't two people and we have two of him.

The last King Saul was printed in Kings, which was a long time ago. At this point, when we've worked so hard to establish accurate abilities and identifiers, having four of one guy seems a bit of a detriment to that goal of organization and accuracy.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #14 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:36:58 PM »

how about this:

David:
discard a philistine. ignore evil royalty. negate fortresses, play abilities, and restrict players from using NT enhancements (CBN). if davids harp is in play, negate demons. may band to a OT warrior-class hero.

this way all the powerful fortresses that help him and HT and makes that part of the ability CBN but the rest can be negated. having him band to warrior-class instead of people with the reference makes it so he doesnt help sam decks too much, which isnt needed

Gabe · « **Reply #15 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:46:07 PM »

We already have a way to play AoCp pre-block with ET. If you want to go to the extra effort to negate David's restrict ability so you can use Hidden Treasures to play AoCp I don't find that OP.

Besides AoCp, the only other play first combo I really want us to avoid is Samson's Sacrifice. Nothing else I've seen is as devastating or as easy to pull off as those 2.

The two things that would scare me about printing this card without thorough testing are the restrict ability and the band ability. The restrict could potentially shut down an entire NT based defense. The band ability by itself isn't OP, but in combination with the other abilities and the FBTNb chain it's probably over the top.

I think holding David's Harp is a clever way to make use of a rarely played Artifact and help David survive battles (which he did in real life). I borrowed the idea from someone else's post on this forum. Sorry that I don't remember who, but props to you. You know who you are.

Sepjazz - we never CBN part of an ability. It's the whole thing or not at all.

I like Pol's idea of 4 Davids, but I like one 4 color David better myself.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:50:17 PM »

@Chonic

Ignore evil royalty is already a super-powerful ability, but should probably be on David for his royalty. Doing something really bad to demons is pretty much a must, but then it's already at the very edge of being OP. He would need to do something to not abuse HT, but either negating play abilities or restricting N.T. enhancements pushes him over the edge. Add four brigades into the mix, 3 of which are already combined in a 3-brigade card, as well as warrior-class and he's crazy OP. Making him I Samuel would simply make it ridiculous, and throwing a banding ability in there for good measure is insanity.

David isn't just some guy, he's a central figure in the Bible, and I just can't see any way to merge all three major aspects plus a minor one with an important brigade into one card.

Chris · « **Reply #17 on:** April 21, 2012, 03:45:37 PM »

Pol, we've discussed this before and I think it comes to agreeing to disagree. I actually think the best way to do it is to have a Saul/Paul situation, where he starts as David, then after winning a battle, you can convert him to King David. Something like this (I didn't put much thought into the abilities):

David
Red/White 10/3 WC Hero
Search deck for Jonathan or a card mentioning David in the title or reference. You may add it to battle. When this character wins a battle, you may convert him to...

King David
Purple/White 10/10 WC Hero
Ignore evil royalty. Search deck or discard pile for a card referring to music and add to hand to draw 2.

Quote from: Gabe on April 21, 2012, 01:46:07 PM

We already have a way to play AoCp pre-block with ET. If you want to go to the extra effort to negate David's restrict ability so you can use Hidden Treasures to play AoCp I don't find that OP.

The problem isn't just AoCp, it's AoCp on top of everything he can play pre-block. AoCp is just kind of the icing on the cake in that sense, but I realize now that my original suggestion doesn't make any difference - his ability can still be negated. Even so, I don't think his restricting NT enhancements works on anything but a gameplay level. It's probably necessary, but at least with Daniel's restriction of NT enhancements, it sort of makes sense in an ironic way since Daniel is full of prophesying about the end times; David doesn't have quite that same reasoning behind it.

Quote

The two things that would scare me about printing this card without thorough testing are the restrict ability and the band ability. The restrict could potentially shut down an entire NT based defense. The band ability by itself isn't OP, but in combination with the other abilities and the FBTNb chain it's probably over the top.

Daniel does something pretty similar to this, but not quite as powerful. That said, not many evil NT enhancements are CBN, so it shouldn't be too different than Daniel's ability, especially since Daniel also negates evil characters, which shuts down a NT defense way more than David's ability would. Maybe Pharisees, but that sort of makes sense.

Quote

Sepjazz - we never CBN part of an ability. It's the whole thing or not at all.

Not true. There's at least one enhancement with part of the ability CBN and the rest of it can be negated. The rules currently allow for it, and I see no reason not to have it, especially since cards like Joseph have it indirectly with the recent rule change there.

cookie monster · « **Reply #18 on:** April 21, 2012, 04:16:42 PM »

I think that if they were to make this card they would have to put it in a set with OP EC's, or ells you would just put this card in your deck and win.

Chris · « **Reply #19 on:** April 21, 2012, 04:21:33 PM »

Quote from: cookie monster on April 21, 2012, 04:16:42 PM

I think that if they sere to make this card they would have to put it in a set with OP EC's, or els you would just put this card in your deck and win.

Not true at all. The card is overpowered, yes, but nothing that can't be handled easily. Even just a CM takes him out. It's the banding that's the problem, for the most part.

Bryon · « **Reply #20 on:** April 21, 2012, 06:04:51 PM »

The only minor change I'd suggest is the restrict ability. I'd rather not limit what type of EEs opponent can play. It shuts down entire N.T. defenses.

Change the third sentence to "You are restricted from playing N.T. enhancements." and it might be in a good place to start testing.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #21 on:** April 21, 2012, 06:18:36 PM »

there is no reason to not make only part of an ability CBN, joseph is like that, joshua the HP is like that. what would we really be worried about david playing with HT? spiritual warfare, AoCp, peace treaty, and what else?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 21, 2012, 06:28:54 PM »

what if it was like this

David
11/11 WC Red/Green/Purple/ White
Cannot not play an enhancement until blocked or unless another hero is in battle. Discard a Philistine. May band to an OT Warrior Class Brigade hero . If Davids Harp is active negate special abilities on Demons. Ignore Evil Royalty. Restrict Players from playing NT Enhancements. CBN.
Identifier Can hold Davids harp.

If you want to try to eliminate the FBTNB chain just a bit you could make it a band to an OT Warrior Class Red brigade hero to make it a bit harder to pull off. If you dont like Ignore you could change it to Protected from Enhancements used by Evil Royalty or something to that effect. As for the Restrict NT Enhancements who knows maybe some sort of search ability or something like (Reveal the top 3 of draw pile. You may add to hand one Card related to Davids Lineage to hand or battle.) Could make just the Cannot play an enhancement part CBN if you had an problem with CBN. Just my thoughts to try and solve some issues. Like the idea though.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #23 on:** April 21, 2012, 06:30:20 PM »

Ha ha just realized i put WC brigade instead of just WC. lol

CJSports · « **Reply #24 on:** April 21, 2012, 07:23:10 PM »

Why is it the three times I suggest a 4 color brigade King David I get slapped around and it's with a much worse ability. No offense meant to Gabe. I really like the art. Very OP but I like it anyway.

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Author Topic: Four Color David (Read 18769 times)

Chris

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Chris