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So this is kind of a weird idea I had, but I've been studying Hebrews for Bible Quizzing, and it struck me that the role of Jesus as our Eternal High Priest is very important, and has some potential for Redemption cards.  So I thought about it and came up with an idea for a theme based around him being High Priest in the true tabernacle in heaven, and so placing the Son of God card in a True Tabernacle fortress, and his being held there would be a requirement on many of the cards in the theme.  Now this poses some problems for balancing the theme.  Since you wouldn't be able to play your SoG/NJ to get 2 souls, the cards in the theme would have to be powerful to make up for it.  However, they also can't be too powerful, because we don't want more broken decks.

Well anyway that's the basic idea behind the theme (or at least how I'm trying to explain the idea), and I made some card concepts for it.  I'm not sure whether I like the cards I came up with or the theme as a whole, but I figured I'd post it here for input.  Also I know the theme would need more cards in it, so I'll work on trying to think up more later.

The True Tabernacle
Type: Good Fortress
Identifiers: Holds one Son of God, holds one Tabernacle Artifact
Special Ability: If Son of God is held here, protect this fortress, its contents and NT teal heroes from discard and shuffle.  Cannot be Negated.
Verse: Hebrews 8:2

Heirs of Promise
Type: Hero
Brigade: Teal
Special Ability: If Son of God is held in the true tabernacle, protect this hero from capture and conversion and removal from the game.  Cannot be Negated.
Verse: Hebrews 6:17

Those who are Sanctified
Type: Hero
Brigade: Teal
Special Ability: If Son of God is held in the true tabernacle, convert an Evil Character to a hero of the brigade of your choice or discard a demon.  Cannot be Interrupted.
Verse: Hebrews 2:11

The Better Covenant
Type: Covenant
Brigade: Teal
Special Ability:  Regardless of protection, search deck for the True Tabernacle and put it in play, or, if the True Tabernacle is already in play, search deck for Son of God and place it in the True Tabernacle.
Verse: Hebrews 7:22

Superiority of the New Covenant
Type: Enhancement
Class: territory
Brigade: Teal
Abilities: -/-
Special Ability:  Place in your territory. Negate O.T. teal cards.  If a N.T. hero would be removed from battle and Son of God is held in the True Tabernacle, you may instead return that hero to territory.
Hebrews: 8:6


Tell me what you think, even if you think its a terrible idea, I might just agree with you.

They rely alittle too much on SoG being in the fortress (Yes, I know that the point of the theme).

Well, we would of course put in Covenant Keepers:
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 8 / 11 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may search draw pile for a Covenant, or an Artifact with “Covenant” in the title, and add it to hand. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human • Verse: Isaiah 56:4-5

Once you get The Better Covenant out, you have both pieces in play in two turns (since it searches for the fortress AND SoG), so now you just have to draw one or the other to succeed at getting your combo.  The MAIN problem is that it isn't protected from discard, so a DoN (or a bazillion other cards) makes you cry.

My real problem with this theme would be its viability in T1 (since apparently that's what most people play, pssht ).  You could have a couple of priests I suppose, what with Priests of Christ and Zecharias, Father of John, but you're mainly relying on generics.  Plus most of the cards you'll want to play with them are OT, and that limits you to the Joshua and/or the couple of useful CBN enhancements.

Now, I think that you could actually pull this off if you mixed in some new silver.  Zecharias and Joshua already have abilities if angels are in play (Zecharias if Gabriel is in play gets to prevent the next evil card, probably the blocker, and Joshua is immune to the PG brigade if silver is in play, which is useful against many decks)...though Joshua isn't CBN on that, darn.

Well, there are plenty of references to angels in Hebrews, you can pull some of those out, maybe even make some banding to the heroes you're making.  Worth a look to beefing up the theme, I think.

Quote from: Arrthoa on February 21, 2012, 10:20:21 PM

They rely alittle too much on SoG being in the fortress (Yes, I know that the point of the theme).

Well, we would of course put in Covenant Keepers:
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 8 / 11 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may search draw pile for a Covenant, or an Artifact with “Covenant” in the title, and add it to hand. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human • Verse: Isaiah 56:4-5

Once you get The Better Covenant out, you have both pieces in play in two turns (since it searches for the fortress AND SoG), so now you just have to draw one or the other to succeed at getting your combo.  The MAIN problem is that it isn't protected from discard, so a DoN (or a bazillion other cards) makes you cry.

My real problem with this theme would be its viability in T1 (since apparently that's what most people play, pssht ).  You could have a couple of priests I suppose, what with Priests of Christ and Zecharias, Father of John, but you're mainly relying on generics.  Plus most of the cards you'll want to play with them are OT, and that limits you to the Joshua and/or the couple of useful CBN enhancements.

Now, I think that you could actually pull this off if you mixed in some new silver.  Zecharias and Joshua already have abilities if angels are in play (Zecharias if Gabriel is in play gets to prevent the next evil card, probably the blocker, and Joshua is immune to the PG brigade if silver is in play, which is useful against many decks)...though Joshua isn't CBN on that, darn.

Well, there are plenty of references to angels in Hebrews, you can pull some of those out, maybe even make some banding to the heroes you're making.  Worth a look to beefing up the theme, I think.

Yeah there are a good number of angel references in Hebrews, off hand I can think of at least one in Hebrews 1 and another in Hebrews 13, and I'm pretty sure there are more.

Interesting idea that I think I like, but but needs tweaking to not be grossly overpowered. Getting SoG into Tabernacle is pretty feasible on turn one in T1 and even more feasible in T2. From there, you just walk in 3 (5 in T2) times with a CBN protected-from-everything-especially-Grapes Hero, return SoG to your hand and win the game.

Once you have the combo up (again, easy to do in turn 1), only Goliath, Chains, Cage, Paul's Girdle, Complainers, Uzzah, Trembling Demon, DoU, Failed Objective, Belshazzar's Banquet, S³, (sometimes) Gibeonite Trickery, Heavy Taxes, Wonders Forgotten and Forgotten History can do a darned thing about it.

While that may sound like a lot of cards, being able to list every single option in such a small space is a bad thing, and of those, only Brown has more than 2 to a Brigade and Brown is good enough as-is. I know I don't know the numbers, but it doesn't matter; if the numbers are low, he'll get initiative to use Faith in our High Priest+Zeal or Holy unto the Lord. If the numbers are high, he'll have to use Enhancements less frequently. Thorns LS can stop DoU; Chains, Cage, Paul's Girdle and Complainers are negatable; Uzzah can be stopped by CwD (which doesn't affect your own combo) or Gloria in Excelsis Deo (which also takes out any horses, the best way to play the battle-ending stoppers); DoU and S³ can be stopped by Thorns LS, HT or Mayhem; leaving 4 reliable stops in the whole game (one of which needs HoH up, too). Beyond this, he turns Grapes into a stronger AotL.

Again, like the idea, but the speed of setup and strength need to be toned down. Perhaps if SoG could not be retrieved from the fortress and/or all your Heroes had to be Teal (to prevent Birth Foretold and Gloria muckery).

I agree the theme needs a lot of work, and keep in mind the cards as they are now are just my first ideas for them, I'm very open to suggestions.

One question I do have about your post, is how do you think a person is going to return SoG to their hand?  I wouldn't think that you could just pick it back up from the tabernacle (I mean if you hold an artifact in a temple, you don't get to just pick it up and return it to hand), and I don't know of a card that would return it to hand (especially since it is protected from shuffle and discard at that point).

Yes, but, I would word it a bit differently to MAKE SURE that can't happen, we all know what happens when you are not explicit to the n^th degree with Redemption cards

I don't know how it could be worded differently to have people sure they can't return it to hand, I can't think of any reason why someone would think that they COULD do so, but if you think of better wording, go ahead and post it, I'd be happy to improve the cards.

However, I think that perhaps more of the protection should be on the fort/enhancement and that no hero (ever) should have a CBN protected from discard by game rule. 

Gideon already has done this (though I suppose that's a little easier to get rid of, since you can get rid of the source of that.)

As I've said before, these are just my first ideas of what to do with this theme idea, if you have better ones, please help me out and post them.

Quote from: Drrek on February 22, 2012, 09:50:09 PM

I don't know how it could be worded differently to have people sure they can't return it to hand, I can't think of any reason why someone would think that they COULD do so, but if you think of better wording, go ahead and post it, I'd be happy to improve the cards.

Could the identifier read "Holds one Son of God, may not be removed.  Holds one Tabernacle Artifact."?

Quote from: Drrek on February 22, 2012, 09:50:09 PM

As I've said before, these are just my first ideas of what to do with this theme idea, if you have better ones, please help me out and post them.

Well, they're your cards, why would I give you the wording when I just want to critique you No fun in doing WORK on something.

In all seriousness...I just realized you don't NEED the protection on the characters.  Wouldn't the Superiority of The Covenant actually protect them from EVERYTHING unless it were negated?  Wouldn't any losing condition be considered 'removed from battle'?  I'll have to think about the actual wording on things.  I'll get back to you on that, gotta read the sections a few times to get some ideas on SA.

superiority of the new Covenant does not protect them from anything.  It is an instead that allows you to return characters being removed from battle to territory, so they still leave the battle, but you get them back unharmed.

SoG can come and go as it pleases because the default location for Dominants is hand. Similarly, Musical Enhancements can come and go from Musician's Chambers. Trust me, you need to specify that SoG can't be removed if that's your intent.

Just have The True Tabernacle say "At any time you may place Son of God on this fortress." That way it's not under the same rules as holds.

I would say The Better Covenant shouldn't search for Son of God, especially since Priests of Christ can already (under some circumstances) search for it, however you should give it another ability in its place.

I like the idea, but it does need a lot of work.