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I can't even imagine how powerful this card would be in booster draft.

That would be epic! WAAAAAAAAAAY OP but epic!

KingLeo

I like the idea of the card but I think the "negate" part of the card makes it a pit op.

Not sure it actually does, when I think about it.  Part of the problem we have with the current "negate X discard Y" like Edict and Bravery is that they can target different cards with each part.  The enhancements also have no CB- status whatsoever, so FBTN or even pseudo-FBTN makes every enhancement no-SA again.

Honestly, this is a balanced card at first glance (maybe limit the ability to the alignment it is played as?), though it would need intense playtesting to ensure it wouldn't unbalance things.  I like it, the more I look at it.

Not sure it actually does, when I think about it.  Part of the problem we have with the current "negate X discard Y" like Edict and Bravery is that they can target different cards with each part.  The enhancements also have no CB- status whatsoever, so FBTN or even pseudo-FBTN makes every enhancement no-SA again.

What your saying is in comparison to cards like Edict and Bravery its not op'd. But that still doesnt mean its not a EXTREMELY strong card. I see no reason why I wouldnt use the 7/0 purple enhans and E.T x3 in every one of my decks with this new card. Even cards like the old school multi color 0/4 Armor of God type cards become really strong with this card. Sun Worship anyone?

Quote from: Redoubter on May 03, 2013, 09:27:27 PM

Honestly, this is a balanced card at first glance (maybe limit the ability to the alignment it is played as?), though it would need intense playtesting to ensure it wouldn't unbalance things.

This is just a fact, not meant to form an opinion; this card can be recurred by both Consider the Lilies and A Soldier's Prayer.  That would need to be part of the testing process.

It can be recurred by a whole lot more Both good and evil.

Would this give enhancements in your discard pile that ability? If so, then ET + any no sa enh is a bit much (discarding an evil card every turn pre-block ). If not, then it would be a nice card to try to work a strategy around (and a great booster card).

You would have to play it to negate and discard.  ET would be able to recur it, but we can already recur most battle-winners, out of battle in many cases.  I don't see everyone complaining that Live Coal is broken because Isaiah recurs it constantly, and it's actually more useful than the cards that could be recurred here

What your saying is in comparison to cards like Edict and Bravery its not op'd. But that still doesnt mean its not a EXTREMELY strong card.

You complained about it having negate and discard, so I countered by showing why it is different from the more OP negate+discard cards that are out there.  So no, I wasn't saying it is not OP because Edict and Bravery are better.  I was pointing out the difference between the abilities to rebut your concern about having both abilities.

I see no reason why I wouldnt use the 7/0 purple enhans and E.T x3 in every one of my decks with this new card. Even cards like the old school multi color 0/4 Armor of God type cards become really strong with this card. Sun Worship anyone?

That's trying to take the point to an extreme, and if you did so, your deck would not be competitive in the least.  The play-first AoCP or other options for ET are much better than recurring a negate+discard.  As I pointed out before, Isaiah isn't broken because he gets to recur Live Coal every battle, and make it even more useful than what we have here.  If you are going to waste the rescue attempt to just recur a negate+discard with a hero that has no other way to win a battle, particularly when your negate+discard has no CB- on it at all, you will lose.  A lot.  Most of the power in the top-tier meta decks come from their characters, not their enhancements.

You can also have all kinds of multi-brigade cards (though only 1 per deck), yes, but if you actually need to use multi, you are spreading your deck too thin and it won't matter much anyway.  Sticking with the brigades in your deck would allow more concentrated power, in general.

You also have not considered the prevalence of FBTN or pseudo-FBTN.  It is everywhere, and it will stop this card from doing anything except leaving you with a hand full of nothing.

Also, who says you are going to draw it?  NT, Revelation, not a weapon, so you have very limited search options to pull it out.  You can only have 1 regardless of the format.  If you build around just this card (which you would be doing, because including any non-SA card enhancement in the deck weakens it considerably otherwise), you will lose when you don't draw it, without any question.

Finally, consider that there are cards in every single brigade that negate+discard enhancements or characters, but don't have the ability to split targets or have any CB-.  You do not see them in competitive decks.  Sure, a deck could be made based on this card, but for the reasons I pointed out above, it would be extremely weak.  Combos just are not powerful enough, and the ability you gain on the no-SA enhancements is not better than a replacement card that is OP or just useful.  The opportunity cost is immense.

TL;DR This card is not OP.

Thanks for all the discussion. I don't think that any enhancements that give your opponent a chance to negate with basically any negate in the game are too strong at all.

This card encourages the battle phase as you can have a lot more back and forth in the battle. as Redoubter mentioned, it is held in check (compared to Edict and Bravery) as you can only target one card rather than negating the evil enhancement and discarding the character who played it is one swoop.

I do think printing it as a promo would remove the Booster draft concern. However, you would draft it long after taking no special ability enhancements and even then you would need characters to play them on so it wouldn't be that bad.

There is a pretty sweet combo with Table of Showbread or Musician's Chamber that no one has commented on yet. Abilities gained in a previous phase gain CBN status. So putting your Buckler on Table of Showbread and attacking with a priest makes Buckler a CBN battle winner. What we always wanted.

I am not quite sure how the wording I picked works with the rules on gained abilities. Is a player even allowed to play the no SA enhancement from hand to negate removal since the card would not have the negate ability until it hits play? If not, I might need to add a clarification that the no SA enhancement can be played at any point you would be granted special initiative due to removal by card of opposite alignment. Thoughts?

Kirk

Kirk is correct on the CBN front. Putting your enhancement in play (on Chambers/Table) allows AtN to target the enhancement, the enhancement gains the ability, and just like Provisions/Gathering, that SA CBN.

However, I'd be too busy using Uriah+Buckler x3 in every deck.