Cactus Game Design Message Boards

there is no question that some cards created in various ccg's have overcentralized the meta to the point where you either play with 1 type of deck or you lose. for example, in 2009 the yugioh meta was completely overrun by TeleDAD decks. it was not uncommon at all for EVERY SINGLE top spot at every single top tournament in every single circuit domestic and international to be nothing but TeleDAD decks (which has thousands of players and far more high-level tournaments in a single year than redemption does in 5 years). an emergency ban was implemented, and the deck was no more. as pol has already stated, banning cards is not about banning what seems to be the most powerful, it is about banning what is completely BROKEN. banning a card will more than likely not cause a cascade where another powerful card will simply take its spot. as long as you keep giving cards checks and striving to keep the game balanced, you will have a healthy meta. in todays yugioh, there are now between 15 and 20 different top tier decks you can top with at high tournaments, which proves unto itself that the meta is diverse and healthy because of bans. there is just no denying that sometimes some cards slip through the cracks and end up becoming far too powerful with far too few answers, and the best course of action to counter them is to simply ban them.

ty masterk you have quoted my point much more elliquently then i now hopefully people will actually care to respond

tour guide is powerful, but its nowhere on the level of abuse teledad wrecked on the meta in 2009. at best tour guide gets you a 2500 atk beater, and if you have noticed, has actually dropped down in price by about $50 (from a $180 card that you have the chance of pulling in a regular booster pack) because of the recent 3 day old ruling concerning xyz materials not being on the field (common play was tour guide -> sangan -> no. 17 leviathan, netting you + 1 from sangan once he left the field). yes, tour guide is powerful and yes, it can be splashed in every single possibly feasible deck, but thats the point...it can be used in every single deck, therefore the meta still remains diverse. furthermore tour guide in no way compromises or shapes the identity of the deck, you will not win games with tour guide alone...its just one of those cards that has become nigh-staple because while powerful, it still only creates a regular 2500 atk beater that can still be easily dealt with by many many many other commonly used cards in the meta. same with pot of duality and solemn warning. pot of duality is one of the most balanced drawing cards i have seen in almost any ccg to date...a very, very, VERY well-thought out and designed card. powerful, but with a hefty drawback that prevents it from becoming ban fodder. solemn warning same way, another powerful card, but thats why its on the ban list (limited to 2).

sorry, i was just trying to demonstrate to him what constitutes a bannable card and what kinds of cards can remain powerful but with checks. pot of duality is powerful but comes with a huge drawback (no special summoning the turn it is used, and its not even a + 1 draw card), solemn comes with a huge substantial lp payment and is checked by the ban list (limited to 2), and tour guide only gets out a regular huge attack mon that has many checks that are commonly found in the meta (mirror force, tt, dark hole, d-prisons, compulsory, effect veiler, etc etc).

on the other hand, joseph and samuel are walking the line into broken...insane abilities on both that cannot be checked by commonly found cards in the meta. both are virtually immune to getting discarded due to more than one easy way to recur in both of their themes, and 1 cant even be discarded straight-up without a negate. both can easily be protected from capture either by simply laying down a fortress or having a certain artifact active. that severely limits the meta's options of keeping these two powerhouses in check with counters that are reasonable for all decks.

tour guide is powerful, but its nowhere on the level of abuse teledad wrecked on the meta in 2009. at best tour guide gets you a 2500 atk beater, and if you have noticed, has actually dropped down in price by about $50 (from a $180 card that you have the chance of pulling in a regular booster pack) because of the recent 3 day old ruling concerning xyz materials not being on the field (common play was tour guide -> sangan -> no. 17 leviathan, netting you + 1 from sangan once he left the field). yes, tour guide is powerful and yes, it can be splashed in every single possibly feasible deck, but thats the point...it can be used in every single deck, therefore the meta still remains diverse. furthermore tour guide in no way compromises or shapes the identity of the deck, you will not win games with tour guide alone...its just one of those cards that has become nigh-staple because while powerful, it still only creates a regular 2500 atk beater that can still be easily dealt with by many many many other commonly used cards in the meta. same with pot of duality and solemn warning. pot of duality is one of the most balanced drawing cards i have seen in almost any ccg to date...a very, very, VERY well-thought out and designed card. powerful, but with a hefty drawback that prevents it from becoming ban fodder. solemn warning same way, another powerful card, but thats why its on the ban list (limited to 2).

I didn't know about the new ruling, last I heard tourguide still works. I guess my point was that that's exactly what Samuel and Joseph and any of those other cards do. You can't win with Samuel, but he gets a deck going so effectively that he is considered by some to be "broken." Tourguide doesn't win you the game, but getting two cards out of your deck, a 2500 atk beater and a searched monster is pretty powerful, and gets your deck rolling faster that it should (and it happens first turn most of the time in a good deck). So I think the same things are happening, but neither should be banned. It's just a powerful card.

Yeah... Just about every amazing battle winner can be in the deck - Reach+AoCP, Sam's Edict, Bravery of David, Zeal for the Lord, etc.

it really is the return of the old-skool speed deck...

Winning 5 minute games is more exciting then winning 25 minute games.

and SIDEBOARD.

We really should do best out of three with top cut.  I mean do we want to see who has the best deck/game play or who can pull a first turn Mayhem etc..., the most?

I'd love to try this, but my tournaments just aren't big enough.

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on September 08, 2011, 01:08:41 PM

We really should do best out of three with top cut.  I mean do we want to see who has the best deck/game play or who can pull a first turn Mayhem etc..., the most?

How would this solve ftm? If someone got 2 ftms and you get one you'd still be losing.

Banning mayhem is easier than changing rules.

No offense to Matt, but I can't imagine that 6 FTMs didn't swing the game heavily in his favor. With best two out of three, it's unlikely that you'd get 2 FTMs each match.

matt got 6 ftm's at nats?

Yeah.

The math starts here

Buying 20 of something and eating 16 is not normal. But on math it is. Math; not even once.

This is a good point. Technically, if he got Peter/4 Dolla Holla, the odds of him getting an FTM go way up. Along with any other draw card he can play first turn.