Author Topic: Type 1-2 Player Unofficial Banlist (Read 84014 times)

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #225 on:** September 04, 2011, 12:04:18 AM »

Played a few TB games today, and I would like to add Samuel to my list of proposed bans, along with Joseph. Samuel is the Joseph of his speed type. He himself is not quite as daunting as Joseph, but he's the lynchpin of the fastest offense ever to exist. In my 3 games today I decked when my opponent was at 33, 26, and 36 cards in deck. The only time I gave up more than 1 or 2 souls was when there was a bizarre soul drought in spite of Amazing+Jehoash, Harvest Time, Hopper, and TAS.

tl;dr: Ban Joseph and Samuel.

Josh · « **Reply #226 on:** September 04, 2011, 03:22:27 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on June 27, 2011, 02:49:12 PM

I would like to highlight that banning cards effectively regresses the game back to a simpler state of being. Reason: when the most powerful cards are banned then there will be new powerful cards (and human ingenuity will find new powerful combos). Ultimately, are you guys wanting the game to be reduced back to simple math? My 4/4 Mark is battling your 6/6 Judas. It is for this reason that I will continue to stand against banning both of the official and unofficial kind.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 04, 2011, 12:04:18 AM

Played a few TB games today, and I would like to add Samuel to my list of proposed bans, along with Joseph. Samuel is the Joseph of his speed type. He himself is not quite as daunting as Joseph, but he's the lynchpin of the fastest offense ever to exist. In my 3 games today I decked when my opponent was at 33, 26, and 36 cards in deck. The only time I gave up more than 1 or 2 souls was when there was a bizarre soul drought in spite of Amazing+Jehoash, Harvest Time, Hopper, and TAS.

tl;dr: Ban Joseph and Samuel.

And then Angel Under the Oak is next, and then Abigail, and then Matthew, and then Susanna... I thought Type Ban was supposed to ban only those cards that are literally broken. If Joseph and Samuel are literally broken (and therefore the two best heroes in the game), what's to stop the 3rd best hero in the game from getting banned next? Joseph's protection is useless against CM, since CM was (at one point) banned from TB. And with no AotL or NJ, having a hero who can get a few CBN enhancements in is not the end of the world. Uriah can get in 3 ITB/negate + win CBN (Bravery of David, David's Triumph, plus an ASP recur) and has almost as good of inish as Joseph.

I know that I dropped out of TB, so maybe my opinion doesn't mean anything, but nearly every single theme has drawing and a CBN battlewinner now. If cards like Joseph and Samuel start getting banned, eventually people will be forced to make defense-heavy TB decks. And then people will find defensive cards that should be banned, and the trend will continue...

I plan on playing TB once my CFP exam is done (November 19th, counting down the days), and when I start playing, I don't want to find half of the new cards already banned. I guess that's why I included the soulseeker quote above.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #227 on:** September 04, 2011, 04:38:27 PM »

That's the reason we don't ban cards today. I agree completely, just because a card is fast/useful doesn't mean it should be put on the chopping block.

soul seeker · « **Reply #228 on:** September 04, 2011, 05:40:31 PM »

And slowly a few more realize the truth. There is no end to banning...it just makes more cards powerful. I will continue to uphold against all fronts of any suggestions of banning.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #229 on:** September 04, 2011, 05:52:44 PM »

Cactus needs to stop printing cards, soon every combination of letters under 500 characters will be printed in every brigade! Slowly a few more will realize the truth.

Smokey · « **Reply #230 on:** September 04, 2011, 06:08:21 PM »

At Pol, not sure how you went from "No bans, balanced metagame" to "Ban ALL the cards" but both Samuel and Broseph have counters if you don't want to use them then QQ moar.

Aside from Broseph's CBN enhancements... but every brigade has that now.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #231 on:** September 04, 2011, 06:39:01 PM »

I can think of some counters to Broseph. Most of them involve Unholy Writ.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #232 on:** September 04, 2011, 07:41:13 PM »

Joseph and Samuel are broken. Anyone care to dispute that? I've heard reference to "some counters," so tell me, what are they?

Part of the point of TB is to decentralize. Right now, I see no reason to use anything but Genesis or Samuel. Banning Joseph and Samuel would increase the viability of other deck types.

Smokey · « **Reply #233 on:** September 04, 2011, 07:51:05 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 04, 2011, 07:41:13 PM

Joseph and Samuel are broken. Anyone care to dispute that? I've heard reference to "some counters," so tell me, what are they?

Part of the point of TB is to decentralize. Right now, I see no reason to use anything but Genesis or Samuel. Banning Joseph and Samuel would increase the viability of other deck types.

Samuel:
Nazereth
Hezekiah's Signet Ring
Rain becomes dust

Joseph:
Anything that harms heroes in territory
Demon Banding chains

To stop Rachael + Stone Pillar:
Nazereth
Hezekiah's Signet Ring

Other deck types? The meta will still be speed after Joe and Samuel are gone, it just won't be Genesis and Judges speed.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #234 on:** September 04, 2011, 08:34:37 PM »

Played Pol.

I support banning Joseph to try to uncentralize the offensive meta. I can't comment yet on Sam because I have never seen him played.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #235 on:** September 04, 2011, 09:04:53 PM »

In fact, RBD was up against Samuel all game and Samuel still won handily. Not only is it fast, it's extremely powerful.

As for Jo, you're basically admitting there's no counter. PWD kills him in territory but he has 3 Heroes to recur him and Abraham's Descendant. Demon banding chains are bad, so that's merely a silver bullet (that takes up a huge chunk of your deck, no less).

The problem isn't speed. The problem is decking on turn 5-6 without sacrificing anything in the way of power. In fact, a few games the deck that wasn't Samuel/Genesis outsped, but still lost because of how powerful they are.

And remember, we're not banning Genesis or everything that's in a Samuel offense. Just banning those two characters will bring the power level down so that there's no more "best offense." The spiraling bans argument is kind of ridiculous and it's never happened so far.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #236 on:** September 06, 2011, 12:23:26 AM »

How did I lose membership exactly?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #237 on:** September 06, 2011, 09:35:32 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on September 06, 2011, 12:23:26 AM

How did I lose membership exactly?

You didn't whine enough.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #238 on:** September 06, 2011, 12:56:16 PM »

If you don't like TB, you don't have to post. Telling TB members that we're whiny and should just tech if we don't like certain strategies is not helpful.

lp670sv · « **Reply #239 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:39:14 PM »

This category really has become "I got beat badly and am bitter about it so let's ban the cards that made me lose" Banning CotW I could see, I played a Genesis deck several times over the weekend and he got creation everytime and pulled 8-10 heroes and and banded them all in. I could see it....except despite that move I still won over half of our games. Broseph was annoying to deal with but I can't win every game 5-0. Yeah I martyred Broseph in territory twice. Killed him. This once again comes down to, not that their aren't any counters there just aren't any you use or that you think are useful. I lost a little bit of an advantage by using martyr then but once again, I can't win every game 5-0

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #240 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:45:10 PM »

Genesis is a centralizing force in TB. Because search is more powerful than draw in TB, Genesis rose to the forefront of TB before the new set. With this set, Genesis was gifted with the best hero in the game. It only makes sense to ban Broseph in order to try to decentralize the meta more. Samuel is a little more ambiguous in my opinion.

TB is about decentralizing the meta of the game from two or three decks, not about only banning OP cards.

lp670sv · « **Reply #241 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:48:39 PM »

So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.

lightningninja · « **Reply #242 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:51:15 PM »

I know I'm not a part of this but, could someone please explain to me how Samuel is such a fast offense? Drawing a total of 6 (if you count the searches for the heroes as draws) doesn't seem too fast... which makes me think that the speed already must have existed. Am I missing some awesome aspect of Samuel?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #243 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:55:03 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on September 06, 2011, 01:48:39 PM

So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.

Actually, nothing from Disciples was banned last session. They were less powerful though because of the lack of New Jerusalem and Falling Away dissuading players from playing pure speed decks.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #244 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:03:04 PM »

So there's two "seasons" of this. Last season, you primarily banned cards that found their way into every deck (NJ, 2/3-liner, etc). Thanks to the absence of a need for speed, search became the best. (Both have counters in RBD and Naz, but that's outside of the scope of what I'm talking about). Now you've moved into banning the stars of themes, not just staples. What's next?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #245 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:07:54 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 06, 2011, 02:03:04 PM

So there's two "seasons" of this. Last season, you primarily banned cards that found their way into every deck (NJ, 2/3-liner, etc). Thanks to the absence of a need for speed, search became the best. (Both have counters in RBD and Naz, but that's outside of the scope of what I'm talking about). Now you've moved into banning the stars of themes, not just staples. What's next?

My anticipation is that after Joseph and Samuel get banned, a defensive card will be banned. I would predict probably Uzzah or Goliath, but you never know. Like I said, TB is about decentralization, not about only banning certain kinds of cards.

soul seeker · « **Reply #246 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:09:37 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on September 06, 2011, 01:55:03 PM

Quote from: lp670sv on September 06, 2011, 01:48:39 PM
So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.

Actually, nothing from Disciples was banned last session. They were less powerful though because of the lack of New Jerusalem and Falling Away dissuading players from playing pure speed decks.

Combined with this.....

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on September 06, 2011, 01:45:10 PM

Genesis is a centralizing force in TB. Because search is more powerful than draw in TB, Genesis rose to the forefront of TB before the new set.

still proves my point. Search is only more powerful because TB made it more powerful. There will always be top decks because humans are creative, and they will find a way to overcome obstacles to win.

I will stop posting in your thread because you guys don't believe me and will not be happy until something is banned. However, I am confident that I am right and hopefully Rob will believe what I have said (the whole point of me posting in a ban thread: not to win you guy's opinions, but the observers).

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #247 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:12:15 PM »

I understand that TB made search more powerful. I am completely ok with that. But the issue is that at this exact moment, there is no reason to play anything but Genesis. That's bad for the game. It's arguably that way WITH NJ and FA. Without them, it's even more prevalent.

The Warrior · « **Reply #248 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:22:53 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on September 06, 2011, 01:48:39 PM

So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.

Thats what happens when you ban cards.... You eventually Ban the Game.

Master KChief · « **Reply #249 on:** September 06, 2011, 03:23:32 PM »

tell that to mtg and yugioh. banning cards is a necessary aspect of a healthy meta and a successful ccg.

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Author Topic: Type 1-2 Player Unofficial Banlist (Read 84014 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Chronic Apathy

lp670sv

lp670sv