Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Not sure if this should go here or another sub-board...

I played a LOT of games with the I/J starters at the Alive festival last month, teaching new players how to play Redemption.  Based on that experience, I think the deck building requirements could be adjusted for the betterment of the game.  Here's what I'd change for T1:

50 cards minimum
1 LS for every 5 cards of deck (so 10 for a 50 card deck)
Dom cap = 1/2 the number of LS, rounded down
Site cap = 1/2 the number of LS, rounded down (this is not as necessary in my mind - I just happen to not like Sites and I'd prefer not to play against a T1 deck that has 10 Sites in it)
Reserve = 1/10 the number of cards in deck, rounded down (capped at 10) (I think this would be good, since the Reserve is really just an extension of the deck and a way to get around HSR)
Starting hand = 10 cards (I've actually tested this before - Josiah was a proponent of it back in the day.  I think it enhanced the game and moved things along quicker, which is good, since timeouts are not rare)

Soul drought was a huge issue with the starter decks.  The decks move so slow that I was literally seeing players get droughted for 3-5 turns most games.  The starter decks have less drawing and soul gen (almost none of each, honestly), so I guess you could solve the problem by adding more.  Honestly, I'd rather just have more LS in the decks.  And 10 is such a nice round number, and 1/5 is such an easy mental math ratio, that I think it just makes sense to go this route. 

I agree that soul drought happens too much with the starters, but I think the constructed formats are fine with all the great soul gen cards out there. So I would rather see new starters at some point rather than change deck building rules.

I'd be curious to see if Soul Gen is still needed if T1 decks had 10 LS instead of 7.  I think they'd still need some if their offense is fast.  Variance is a real thing. 

It's my personal opinion that Redemption "problems" that can be solved via game rules/deck building requirements usually should be, as opposed to introducing new cards or de facto requiring players to play certain cards/abilities in their decks.  Sure, Redemption has a lot of Soul Gen now - but why should I feel obligated to include it in my deck?  I want my deck to be about winning battles on offense and stopping rescues on defense, and I want the maximum flexibility/deck space to dedicate to these two fundamental game strategies.  I feel that I shouldn't have to include my own cards to even let me attack for souls in the first place.

Just put Ends of the Earth in the next starter decks! /sbutnotreally

I would love to see the day where soul gen is optional, not necessary. The idea of toying with the lost soul ratio and starting hand size appeals to me because it's not a really drastic change.

It's also worth noting that most of the competitive soul gen cards aren't strictly played to fish out souls. Prisoner at Gaza is reserve access, Covet steals your opponents best soul, Ends gives you enhancements... I would play them even with a 10 soul minimum.

10 souls would make starter deck gameplay better but it would speed up constructed decks too much. Likewise with 10 card starting hands. I agree with Red Wing that the answer is not changing game rules but rather making starter decks that better reflect actual Redemption gameplay.

What if AUTO, Sam, Throne, and a few other oppressive speed cards were gone from the game?  And future draw/search abilities were not as oppressive?  Would it make more sense then, or do you think it will never make sense?

Also, timeouts are not rare in tournaments these days.  Negate abilities slow the game down sooooo much.  Is it a bad thing to speed up the game?

Agree with adjusting future starter decks.

Keep in mind--starter deck games are not meant to be "attack every turn" like constructed formats end up being.

But when a player can't attack and their opponent can, that quickly leads to NPE on the part of the player who can't attack. 

Keep in mind that almost all the new players I taught (at a Christian music festival no less!) were big into MtG, Yugioh, Pokemon, or a combination of them.  MtG being the most common.  I could see frustration on faces when they couldn't attack for turns on end while their opponent could.  That's a game experience that is out of their control and they feel like they can't do anything about it (because they can't), and my explanation can't be "Well, don't worry, once you get better cards, your experience will be different".  They need the good experience when they learn the game.

Also, timeouts are not rare in tournaments these days.  Negate abilities slow the game down sooooo much.  Is it a bad thing to speed up the game?

I would only want the game to speed up if we could somehow implement best 2/3 without too much of a type half mini game feel. I generally find the games that run closer to time more enjoyable anyway.

What if AUTO, Sam, Throne, and a few other oppressive speed cards were gone from the game?  And future draw/search abilities were not as oppressive?  Would it make more sense then, or do you think it will never make sense?

IMO it would never make sense to move to 10 lost souls and 10 card starting hands. Absolutely not without set rotation and likely even post rotation it would still give too much consistency. The game is only going to get faster and more consistent as time goes on.

For constructed T1, I think soul drought with soul generation is a great design space, currently I dont know that much (if any) changes are required.

During Alive, I had a similar problem than no souls, but I felt that it was no Characters in general that made for a "bad" experience for teaching. I had many games when the person I was teaching did not have a single Evil Character to resist, or no heroes for a rescue attempt. For all practical purpose no characters (be it a LS, Hero, or EC) have the same issue in teaching with starter decks.

My Recommendation is put in a few Heroes/EC that are TC and say something like: "when this character is discarded from anywhere, place in an opponent's land of Bondage." Bump up the number of Heroes and EC by one or two, and put Fiery Chariots in one deck and David's Harp in the other. Or Enhancements that allow you to tutor up characters.

Another recommendation is to actually name the starter decks, and do a single player starter deck (the market has done both, but most CCG players are used to a single player starter deck - this was confirmed to me by the mass confusion at Alive when I had to keep explaining to people that there were two decks in a starter deck box). Starer K/L is rather boring in today's market, and not very thematic to a gaming experience. 
Examples to consider:
"Apple of God's Eye" (A deck around the Shepherd David)
"Heavenly Hosts" (A deck around the warring angels of the O.T.)
"Turning it Upside-down" (a deck about the first deacons)
"Consuming Fire" (around the story of Elijah bringing God's message against the wicked queen)

The goal with the starter decks should be to
1) Learn the card types
2) Learn the basic mechanics (not EVERY rule and nuisance)
3) Learn the love for the game