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What are your issues with the movie?It seems like everyone who loved TFA hated TLJ and vice versa.
Quote from: Daniel on December 16, 2017, 05:49:29 PMWhat are your issues with the movie?It seems like everyone who loved TFA hated TLJ and vice versa.My brothers and I just had an hour and a half discussion of everything we thought about the movie. I'll try to sum up the biggest issues with a huge spoiler warning:Spoiler (hover to show)1. The humor: Right away the interaction between Poe and Hux seems very out of place and eliminates the feel that a fleet of Star Destroyers is a threat. This sets up the main problem with the humor in the rest of the movie. There's almost no tension thanks to slapstick nonsense (Kylo flinging Hux against the wall at the end, BB8 taking down the prison guards, etc). Empire had some humor, but it wasn't forced on every character like it seemed to be in this. This was just tonally inconsistent.2. Absolutely stupid characters: Why do the fleet of Star Destroyers do nothing as a slow fleet of bombers move against the Dreadnaught? Why does the Vice Admiral not tell Poe her plan to retreat to the old rebel base (thus preventing mutiny, thus eliminating the need for the pointless Finn/Rose plot, which is so bad)? Why would Rose crash into Finn, nearly killing both of them, and afterward gives a speech about "protecting what we love" as their base's blast doors blow up?3. Leia: Floats back from space? What?? I laughed out loud the first time from the sheer stupidity of it, the second time I laughed more from sadness. 4. Pointless Characters: Snoke. Leia. Finn. Phasma. Wasted. Why build up Snoke so much only to waste him comedically (we learn nothing more of him)? Why did Leia survive only to do nothing in the entire rest of the movie? What purpose did Phasma serve, except to get killed stupidly? Finn literally makes everything worse. 5. Luke: Why leave a map if you don't want to be found? The whole purpose of FA is undermined. Why give up on Kylo? Did he become an entirely different character from Return, after he saved Vader? They do a cool twist with Luke and force projection at the end, only to pull the carpet out from under us and kill him afterward. Such a waste. He goes from heroic in the original trilogy to a cowardly incompetent with a bare-bones reasoning in 1 movie. Talk about disappointing.6. Kylo has absolutely no motivation. What would even tempt him to turn to the Dark Side to the point where Luke contemplates murdering him? How would Snoke get to him before Luke (who even is Snoke, or where did he come from? No one cares)? Why would he care about power and the First Order? Maybe we'll find out, but such a basic thing as character motivation should be fleshed out early, rather than later.There's so much more. They had so much potential, and it's all wasted.Why do you love it? I really enjoy movies and such discussions.
It seems like everyone who loved TFA hated TLJ and vice versa.
1. How did the First Order find the rebel base?
2. How did the rebels know to evacuate said base before the fleet arrived?
3. The First Order has more Star Destroyers (and a Dreadnaught) than the Empire did when they cornered the rebels on Hoth, and there are fewer rebels now to deal with. Yet, somehow, the rebels escape right under their noses.
4. The Dreadnaught fires on the base first, and not the cruiser already in orbit, even though the base is going nowhere and the cruiser can leave at anytime.
5. The Dreadnaught is ill-equipped to take down a single X wing fighter.
6. How can the First Order track the cruiser at all?
7. If the First Order can track the cruiser, why not the Millennium Falcon?
8. Why can Kylo fly through the cruiser’s shields and destroy the main hangar bay?
9. If Kylo can do this, and if 2 Tie Fighters, of all things, can blow up the cruiser bridge even though Star Destroyer blasts aren’t penetrating the shields, why not send a vast assortment of Tie fighters to take out the then-nearly unarmed cruiser and its escorts?
10. Why do they call Kylo back when he needs no support (since there is no opposition)?
11. How do they know how much fuel the cruiser has in the first place,
and why do they not cut the cruiser off (send some Star Destroyers through hyperspace some ways ahead, ie setting a trap, like any ordinary person would)?
12. How does Leia not die immediately in space?
I guess I don't understand how you can both like the original trilogy and find these kinds of "plot holes" troublesome. Pretty much each of these has an analog in one or more of the original trilogy.
Quote3. The First Order has more Star Destroyers (and a Dreadnaught) than the Empire did when they cornered the rebels on Hoth, and there are fewer rebels now to deal with. Yet, somehow, the rebels escape right under their noses.The rebels also got away in TESB, so I don't understand your point.
Quote5. The Dreadnaught is ill-equipped to take down a single X wing fighter.Just like every other capital ship in the Star Wars universe ever.
Long story short, we can probably agree to disagree forever.
Can we agree on the following?Good things:1. Mark Hamill tore up his scenes - He was good for what he was asked to do, but you can't convince me that Mark didn't get to play the character he wanted to and wasn't disappointed with their choices.2. Kylo Ren is the best/most nuanced antagonist in any SW movie. - Best, no; most nuanced, yes. Most interesting, yes. Perhaps the third movie will clear up some things about him, but right now too much is unanswered.3. The Rey/Kylo team up battle is amazing. - It was a cool sequence, despite Rey's inexplicable combat mastery against well-trained foes.4. The Rey/Kylo long distance communication stuff was good. - Take out the awkward humor and it is.5. Carrie Fisher's acting was excellent. - Didn't particularly stand out to me, as I think she's just passable in the OT and these movies.6. Visuals/music were typical SW. - Goes without saying. But they reuse so much of the OT music.Not so good things:1. The main rebellion story line was just a slow motion chase. - Considering this is a large bulk of the story, this is a pretty big negative. 2. The casino mission existed just to give Finn/Rose something to do - Yes, absolutely pointless and distracting.3. There were all the typical SW plot holes. - Yes, and then some.4. The rebellion's brilliant escape plan was a big old rusty door. Pretty poor plan, but considering they were desperate and on the run, I'm surprised they had a plan at all.5. Po should be arrested a a traitor. Yes, but worse, how Admiral Dern got any sort of position of power is beyond me.
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 18, 2017, 06:45:19 PM2. Kylo Ren is the best/most nuanced antagonist in any SW movie. - Best, no; most nuanced, yes. Most interesting, yes. Perhaps the third movie will clear up some things about him, but right now too much is unanswered.In your opinion who was a better SW antagonist than Kylo Ren (and why)?3. The Rey/Kylo team up battle is amazing. - It was a cool sequence, despite Rey's inexplicable combat mastery against well-trained foes.Given that you have mentioned Rey's continuing Mary Sue-ness as an issue a couple of times, how in the world did you love TFA? To me that was one of the most annoying things about TFA...Rey--who has never been off planet--can jump in and pilot the Millenium Falcon. Not pilot it in the sense of just minimally get it flying--whioch would by itself be silly--but actually pilot it better than Han Solo. Not to mention when the Millenium Falcon needs repairs, Rey is better and diagnosing and fixing the problem then Han Solo. That is only one of a dozen examples and is by itself 100x worse then any problems with Rey in TLJ.
2. Kylo Ren is the best/most nuanced antagonist in any SW movie. - Best, no; most nuanced, yes. Most interesting, yes. Perhaps the third movie will clear up some things about him, but right now too much is unanswered.In your opinion who was a better SW antagonist than Kylo Ren (and why)?3. The Rey/Kylo team up battle is amazing. - It was a cool sequence, despite Rey's inexplicable combat mastery against well-trained foes.Given that you have mentioned Rey's continuing Mary Sue-ness as an issue a couple of times, how in the world did you love TFA? To me that was one of the most annoying things about TFA...Rey--who has never been off planet--can jump in and pilot the Millenium Falcon. Not pilot it in the sense of just minimally get it flying--whioch would by itself be silly--but actually pilot it better than Han Solo. Not to mention when the Millenium Falcon needs repairs, Rey is better and diagnosing and fixing the problem then Han Solo. That is only one of a dozen examples and is by itself 100x worse then any problems with Rey in TLJ.
Also, I like Kylo Ren, but dang... still trying to figure him out, he is SO dysfunctional.
As to the latter, the real problem with Luke's arc, IMO, isn't in what took place on the island, as much as it was Luke's handling of Ben Solo years earlier.
Way to much projection of (perceived) modern culture and values (e.g., multicultural cast)