Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Spoilers!) (Read 19195 times)

Master Q · « **on:** December 16, 2017, 05:01:47 PM »

Oh Disney. No spoilers, but...

Spoiler (hover to show)

Daniel · « **Reply #1 on:** December 16, 2017, 05:19:53 PM »

I absolutely loved the movie. So much better than Episode 7.

Master Q · « **Reply #2 on:** December 16, 2017, 05:35:33 PM »

I saw it opening night with about 6 other people, who either had mixed or bad reactions to it. I saw it again last night with 2 more different people, thinking I may have missed something the first time. Neither of them liked it, and they both liked Rogue One (which I thought was pretty bad). Not getting into spoilers, there's just so much I hate in this movie (though I think I rank it above Rogue One).

Though I can clearly see why people dislike Force Awakens, I actually really loved that. This movie pretty much ruined that one for me, and what anticipation I had for Episode 9.

Daniel · « **Reply #3 on:** December 16, 2017, 05:49:29 PM »

What are your issues with the movie?

It seems like everyone who loved TFA hated TLJ and vice versa.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 16, 2017, 06:08:53 PM »

So you're saying I have something to look forward too? Haha the only things I liked about the force awakens were the villain, cgi, and the epic return of Han and Chewy. Also, fwiw, I did enjoy rogue one more than TFA because it had more of a starwarsy feel than TFA as its humor was more situational than tryhard.

Master Q · « **Reply #5 on:** December 16, 2017, 06:21:40 PM »

Quote from: Daniel on December 16, 2017, 05:49:29 PM

What are your issues with the movie?

It seems like everyone who loved TFA hated TLJ and vice versa.

My brothers and I just had an hour and a half discussion of everything we thought about the movie. I'll try to sum up the biggest issues with a huge spoiler warning:

Spoiler (hover to show)

1. The humor: Right away the interaction between Poe and Hux seems very out of place and eliminates the feel that a fleet of Star Destroyers is a threat. This sets up the main problem with the humor in the rest of the movie. There's almost no tension thanks to slapstick nonsense (Kylo flinging Hux against the wall at the end, BB8 taking down the prison guards, etc). Empire had some humor, but it wasn't forced on every character like it seemed to be in this. This was just tonally inconsistent.

2. Absolutely stupid characters: Why do the fleet of Star Destroyers do nothing as a slow fleet of bombers move against the Dreadnaught? Why does the Vice Admiral not tell Poe her plan to retreat to the old rebel base (thus preventing mutiny, thus eliminating the need for the pointless Finn/Rose plot, which is so bad)? Why would Rose crash into Finn, nearly killing both of them, and afterward gives a speech about "protecting what we love" as their base's blast doors blow up?

3. Leia: Floats back from space? What?? I laughed out loud the first time from the sheer stupidity of it, the second time I laughed more from sadness.

4. Pointless Characters: Snoke. Leia. Finn. Phasma. Wasted. Why build up Snoke so much only to waste him comedically (we learn nothing more of him)? Why did Leia survive only to do nothing in the entire rest of the movie? What purpose did Phasma serve, except to get killed stupidly? Finn literally makes everything worse.

5. Luke: Why leave a map if you don't want to be found? The whole purpose of FA is undermined. Why give up on Kylo? Did he become an entirely different character from Return, after he saved Vader? They do a cool twist with Luke and force projection at the end, only to pull the carpet out from under us and kill him afterward. Such a waste. He goes from heroic in the original trilogy to a cowardly incompetent with a bare-bones reasoning in 1 movie. Talk about disappointing.

6. Kylo has absolutely no motivation. What would even tempt him to turn to the Dark Side to the point where Luke contemplates murdering him? How would Snoke get to him before Luke (who even is Snoke, or where did he come from? No one cares)? Why would he care about power and the First Order? Maybe we'll find out, but such a basic thing as character motivation should be fleshed out early, rather than later.

There's so much more. They had so much potential, and it's all wasted.

Why do you love it? I really enjoy movies and such discussions.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #6 on:** December 16, 2017, 06:48:12 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on December 16, 2017, 06:21:40 PM

Quote from: Daniel on December 16, 2017, 05:49:29 PM
What are your issues with the movie?

It seems like everyone who loved TFA hated TLJ and vice versa.

My brothers and I just had an hour and a half discussion of everything we thought about the movie. I'll try to sum up the biggest issues with a huge spoiler warning:

Spoiler (hover to show)
1. The humor: Right away the interaction between Poe and Hux seems very out of place and eliminates the feel that a fleet of Star Destroyers is a threat. This sets up the main problem with the humor in the rest of the movie. There's almost no tension thanks to slapstick nonsense (Kylo flinging Hux against the wall at the end, BB8 taking down the prison guards, etc). Empire had some humor, but it wasn't forced on every character like it seemed to be in this. This was just tonally inconsistent.

2. Absolutely stupid characters: Why do the fleet of Star Destroyers do nothing as a slow fleet of bombers move against the Dreadnaught? Why does the Vice Admiral not tell Poe her plan to retreat to the old rebel base (thus preventing mutiny, thus eliminating the need for the pointless Finn/Rose plot, which is so bad)? Why would Rose crash into Finn, nearly killing both of them, and afterward gives a speech about "protecting what we love" as their base's blast doors blow up?

3. Leia: Floats back from space? What?? I laughed out loud the first time from the sheer stupidity of it, the second time I laughed more from sadness.

4. Pointless Characters: Snoke. Leia. Finn. Phasma. Wasted. Why build up Snoke so much only to waste him comedically (we learn nothing more of him)? Why did Leia survive only to do nothing in the entire rest of the movie? What purpose did Phasma serve, except to get killed stupidly? Finn literally makes everything worse.

5. Luke: Why leave a map if you don't want to be found? The whole purpose of FA is undermined. Why give up on Kylo? Did he become an entirely different character from Return, after he saved Vader? They do a cool twist with Luke and force projection at the end, only to pull the carpet out from under us and kill him afterward. Such a waste. He goes from heroic in the original trilogy to a cowardly incompetent with a bare-bones reasoning in 1 movie. Talk about disappointing.

6. Kylo has absolutely no motivation. What would even tempt him to turn to the Dark Side to the point where Luke contemplates murdering him? How would Snoke get to him before Luke (who even is Snoke, or where did he come from? No one cares)? Why would he care about power and the First Order? Maybe we'll find out, but such a basic thing as character motivation should be fleshed out early, rather than later.

There's so much more. They had so much potential, and it's all wasted.

Why do you love it? I really enjoy movies and such discussions.

This

Bobbert · « **Reply #7 on:** December 16, 2017, 06:48:21 PM »

It definitely took a lot of risks. IMO, some of them payed off really well and others kinda fell flat. There was a lot of wasted potential, but also some really good stuff.

Minor spoilers:

Spoiler (hover to show)

As a big fan of the old EU, I'm really conflicted about Luke's characterization. On one hand, this isn't the wise Jedi Master that I was expecting. On the other, he's so human that I can't help but be impressed. Mark Hamill did a fantastic job with the character.
Rey's parentage made me really happy. I know a lot of people didn't like it, but this was the option that I'd been rooting for since TFA first came out.
Snoke was similar. Was not expecting what happened and I think it's hilarious how they subverted all the theories on who he is.
I like the idea of the casino planet - it's always good to see civilian life as opposed to the constant wars we see in this universe - but I don't think it was implemented very well.
Similar story with Rose. I loved the first few scenes with her, but as that whole subplot unfolded I was less and less exited to see her onscreen each time.
I liked Holdo, but I think she would have been much more impactful if we had ever had a reason to care about her before now. I've been turning over in my head the pros and cons of using Ackbar in that role instead, and the main con I have is that there isn't a good way to get him off the bridge.
On a related note, Poe is a war criminal and a traitor several times over. I really hope there's more than a slap on the wrist, but I'm not optimistic given how the movie ends.
Those bombers are terribly designed. One tap once armed and the whole thing goes up? Do those bomb bays open into space? Why on earth isn't there a button in the cockpit that drops the payload?
I don't think the writers understand the impacts of hard vacuum on the human body, or how gravity works without a planet underneath you.
Whoever came up with the red on white color scheme for the Crait battle is a genius and deserves an award. That was fantastic.
Visuals were stunning, especially the lightspeed moment. Music was fantastic (though it is John Williams, so that's a given).
The two major themes (failure and building off it, and separating from the past) worked well in my opinion, even if they don't feel quite as 'Star Wars'. They may also become very meta, given how the movie has been received thus far.

INSTAPOSTED BY Q (more major spoilers):

Spoiler (hover to show)

All in all, I liked the movie. I think I need to go see it again before I give a final verdict, but I enjoyed it. There are a couple great moments that were well worth the price of admission to me, even if there were other parts that didn't work as well.

I think one factor may be that I wasn't aboard the hype train for this one. I watched maybe two trailers and went in with few expectations, and enjoyed it a lot. Most people I know who didn't like it were the ones who were consuming every possible detail they could before it came out, and had more solid notions about what they were expecting it to be.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #8 on:** December 16, 2017, 07:53:47 PM »

I watched it and thought it was amazing. Granted if you want to criticize the little details you easily can, however considering this is the star wars universe and considering the fan base for said universe it's impossible to please everyone. I feel like they ultimately decided to please the masses and make it a movie for everyone similar to the MCU. There are definitely issues with the movie if you want to break it apart but overall I view it as a highly enjoyable experience and am excited for future movies. It's a great cinematic experience not a super accurate and well designed plot type of film.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 17, 2017, 12:47:00 AM »

Quote from: Daniel on December 16, 2017, 05:49:29 PM

It seems like everyone who loved TFA hated TLJ and vice versa.

I enjoyed The Force Awakens, but more as a fun trifle. IMO, The Last Jedi is the second best Star Wars movie, trailing The Empire Strikes Back by just a skosh.*

Spoiler (hover to show)

Let me start by noting that I can understand the "Leia was underutilized" comments, but I think they are unfair. The plan was to have Leia be a focal point in Episode IX (like Han was in TFA and Luke was in TLJ). As such, Leia's abilities were only hinted at and the character was deliberately left mysterious. It is not the creative team's fault that Carrie Fisher passed away before Leia's arc could be complete.

TFA was basically a rehash of the original Star Wars movie. Beyond the basic background and the plot there was a one-to-one update of some of the characters (e.g., Snoke filling in for the Emperor as the ultimate baddie). Since the original movie was fun the redo was fun. The Last Jedi, on the other hand, is not just something brand new, but it actively turned viewers expectations against them. The throne room scene ripped apart most of what we thought we knew about the "big" things.

Snoke must be someone very important, because there must be an all powerful dark side baddie pulling the strings. Nope.
Rey's ancestors must be important (e.g., a Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine/...), because force abilities only run in certain gifted families. Nuh-uh.
Kylo must have a path to redemption, because even Darth Vader turned from the darkside. Not so much.

The initial reaction to The Empire Strikes Back was also lukewarm, and for similar reasons. I would say that TLJ is going to be better received on further review, just as TESB was.

Some random thoughts...

I don't find Leia floating in from space any less plausible than Luke projecting himself across parsecs. She was a Skywalker, and they needed some way to show that she too had the Skywalker mojo.

Star Wars humor is always bad. At least this time, some of it was at least mildly funny.

I don't understand the claim about Kylo lacking motivation. His offer to Rey after defeating the Knights of Ren made it clear that Kylo's hunger for power has consumed him.

Agree on the visuals for the Crait battle. Especially when Luke Skywalker left no tracks or marks.

*The original not included in my ranking, because I saw it in the theater the Saturday after it had opened, and it was the most amazing movie experience ever.

Isildur · « **Reply #10 on:** December 17, 2017, 03:25:45 AM »

IMO in regards to the humor... I don't think Star Wars is really the place for laugh out loud humor.

There are plenty of humorous moments in the original trilogy and prequel trilogy but I don't think I ever actually laughed out loud, those moments just got a chuckle out of me.

In the same sense that spaghetti westerns have plenty of humorous moments but none of them are ever really laugh out loud moments. The Silver Dollar Trilogy with Clint Eastwood would feel a lot different if there were a bunch of laugh out loud moments in the films.

The comment against the humor is totally valid IMO. Having consistent tonality is not just important over the course of a single film but it's important to have a consistent tone throughout an entire franchise.

Master Q · « **Reply #11 on:** December 17, 2017, 04:35:52 PM »

Hope you like reading lol. Lots of spoilers, be warned.

@The Schaefer- We should know from the prequels that the Devil’s in the details, my friend. And the details they overlook in TLJ are overwhelming in my eyes. When details are actually plot holes, they ruin the movie for me.

@EmJayBee- Funny, everything you just said was wrong.

I really enjoy Star Wars and its lore from a storytelling perspective, but I’m not an uber fan (basically movies only, clone wars Tartakovsky cartoon, and a handful of games). Though I grew up with the OT and the prequels following, I don’t gobble up SW media and I don’t give SW a pass because it’s SW.

That being said, I went into this movie with every intention of loving it, after loving TFA. Then I saw it again to see if my first impression was in haste. Alas, the second viewing I actually tried falling asleep because the 2.5 hr ‘Star Wars adventure movie’ felt like 3.5 hrs of nothing.

Rogue One was boring and bland because its characters were paper and literally disposable fodder. But I expected nothing from that movie, since the premise didn’t need to be told and wasn’t told in an interesting way. It was bad because it failed to make me care. Unlike Rogue One, TLJ has some things I like (Yoda scene, Force scenes, Luke and Kylo final confrontation), along with characters I care about, which puts it above that movie for me. That being said, the problems it has are actually probably more than Rogue One, on a narrative level.

Master Q · « **Reply #12 on:** December 17, 2017, 04:40:20 PM »

(Continued) As thread title suggests, Large Spoiler Warning!:

These are as many problems as I can recall from two viewings. Some of these can probably be called nitpicks, sure, but if a movie breaks my immersion by making me ask this many basic questions and question the actions of every character, then it’s doing something poorly.

1. How did the First Order find the rebel base?

2. How did the rebels know to evacuate said base before the fleet arrived?

3. The First Order has more Star Destroyers (and a Dreadnaught) than the Empire did when they cornered the rebels on Hoth, and there are fewer rebels now to deal with. Yet, somehow, the rebels escape right under their noses.

4. The Dreadnaught fires on the base first, and not the cruiser already in orbit, even though the base is going nowhere and the cruiser can leave at anytime.

5. The Dreadnaught is ill-equipped to take down a single X wing fighter.

6. How can the First Order track the cruiser at all?

7. If the First Order can track the cruiser, why not the Millennium Falcon?

8. Why can Kylo fly through the cruiser’s shields and destroy the main hangar bay?

9. If Kylo can do this, and if 2 Tie Fighters, of all things, can blow up the cruiser bridge even though Star Destroyer blasts aren’t penetrating the shields, why not send a vast assortment of Tie fighters to take out the then-nearly unarmed cruiser and its escorts?

10. Why do they call Kylo back when he needs no support (since there is no opposition)?

11. How do they know how much fuel the cruiser has in the first place, and why do they not cut the cruiser off (send some Star Destroyers through hyperspace some ways ahead, ie setting a trap, like any ordinary person would)?

12. How does Leia not die immediately in space?

13. Why would the Vice Admiral not realize the importance of clear communication in a crisis situation, instead relying on vague sayings about hope?

14. How would the First Order not realize that a planet is nearby for them to escape to?

15. How would the First Order also not realize immediately that said planet is a former stronghold and capturing it should take priority (this is where using hyperspace to cut them off or sending a bunch of faster fighters probably would’ve been useful)?

16. Why would they not scan for smaller ships trying to escape as the cruiser is running low on fuel?

17. Why would the First Order not bombard the planet from orbit, where the rebels are supposedly trapped, at no risk to themselves?

18. Why are Finn and Rose able to take a ship out from the cruiser, travel to some planet far away, and return? Does nobody notice the missing ship? Does nobody realize they have a ship in the cruiser that can potentially ferry all of them off?

19. Finn and Rose are basically arrested for illegal parking, yet their ship is unmoved when they escape imprisonment.

20. Finn and Rose are placed in the same cell, with another prisoner, when there seems to be an abundance of empty cells.

21. The Thief can break out of jail at anytime, but only does so when it’s convenient for the plot.

22. The First Order actually upholds their end of the bargain, paying the thief and letting him go, when there is no reason for them to do so, given the thief has proven willing and capable of working against them.

23. An entire platoon of stormtroopers disappears in the hangar as Snoke’s Star Destroyer is hit by the Deus Ex Kamikaze cruiser. Conveniently, Finn and Rose are unharmed by the explosion, though the stormtroopers poised to execute them are nowhere to be seen, and Phasma and a dozen stormtroopers appear a good distance away after Phasma was standing very near them only moments before.

24. BB8 was not captured with Finn, Rose, and thief, even though the First Order droid only caught on to them thanks to BB8’s garbage bin disguise.

25. Rey somehow knows where Snoke’s personal escape craft is, and knows how to fly it, and does so all without anyone stopping her?

26. Rey somehow gets back on the Falcon without difficulty, leaving the escape craft who knows where.

27. Why does Luke leave a map if his intention is to remain isolated and never return?

Master Q · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2017, 04:42:19 PM »

My biggest complaint, and many others I’m sure, is how they handled Luke Skywalker’s character. I get he’s like a Yoda character now, or he’s more human, or whatever, but that undermines his whole arc in the OT and defeats everything he stood for, all for the sake of Rey being the new Luke. For that, and his cheap death, I feel like TLJ punched me in the gut all for the sake of subverting expectations. Such a low tactic.

Also, just because Kylo doesn’t turn in this one, doesn’t mean he won’t in 9. Once he killed Snoke, I knew immediately that he was going to take his place, so there was no surprise there. If he doesn’t turn in 9, I will actually applaud in the theater for doing something truly different, and that would take some complaint away from me about Luke’s baseless fear of him (but not all of it). But I’m fully expecting him to, because it’s Disney and Star Wars.

Things I do not have a problem with that other people seem to:

1. I can accept that Rey came from nothing and is just a prodigy, and that’s why she doesn’t need much training. However, the people complaining she was a Mary Sue in Ep7 now have much more ammo for their case thanks to her shenanigans in this movie.

2. I can accept that Snoke was blinded by Kylo’s intent and didn’t know the lightsaber was moving. I think it was a very Sith way for him to be defeated, and showed that Kylo is capable of that sort of underhanded deception that previously he was not. However, it doesn’t mean Snoke wasn’t wasted, and his death wasn’t funny to watch.

3. I can get behind the force connection with Kylo and Rey (given Snoke’s involvement), and Luke’s projection stunt at the end. It’s an interesting concept that opens up possibilities.

Perhaps my opinion will change, as opinions often do, but I can’t reconcile most of these problems now and still call it a good, story-driven movie like I can with Empire. Especially since I know with a few tweaks it could’ve been done so much better. Especially when Empire didn’t screw up previously-established, beloved characters from 40 years ago for the purpose of adopting a different style, and instead made you care about recently-established characters by putting them through tests and trials by adopting a different style.

As a whole, SW is overexposed and overrated, but those OT movies are still close to my heart, as they are to many, so my reaction to this is stronger than most other movies I’d consider bad. And wow, this got longer than I first intended, to the point of actually being pretty cathartic.

:This is basically the discussion I had with my brothers. We like to talk about movies. Of course everything is subjective, and I am more critical than most:

The Schaefer · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2017, 05:25:22 PM »

The film is ultimately very polarizing. For those that get hung up on the little details you can pick it apart. For those that don't it's near a masterpiece. I guess I dont really care as much about why there is wasted potential for the movie or minor plot holes. I didn't feel there were any major enough to just destroy the ultimate story they were going for. For me TLJ was a highly enjoyable experience that I felt paid homage to the older films adequately, pushed the series forward into a new and modern light (which many won't like), offered unexpected surprises which is awesome to me, and put Star Wars in a great place for years to come. There's nothing more I could want out of it. Yes they could have done much differently and made better use of characters and had a more compelling plot but at what cost realistically? Rarely is a movie flawless. So for me despite the flaws the film has I can easily overlook them to see TLJ as a great Star Wars movie experience that sets up Star Wars' future better than any film in the series to date.

In short. THE MOST POLARIZING STAR WARS FILM TO DATE.

If minor plot holes bug you TLJ is likely going to leave you wanting. There are polarizing plot devices as well so that can leave you let down. A lot of your experience will be based on how open you are to the movie not playing out like you wanted it to. And the future of star wars is bright with options to do plenty of movies that will cater to your taste in movie regardless of how you feel about TLJ.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 17, 2017, 08:46:48 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on December 17, 2017, 04:40:20 PM

1. How did the First Order find the rebel base?

The same way the Empire found the rebel base in TESB or maybe not. The point is we already know a plausible way they could have done it, so providing details would not have added much if anything to the story.

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2. How did the rebels know to evacuate said base before the fleet arrived?

The same way the rebels knew to evacuate in TESB or maybe not. See above.

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3. The First Order has more Star Destroyers (and a Dreadnaught) than the Empire did when they cornered the rebels on Hoth, and there are fewer rebels now to deal with. Yet, somehow, the rebels escape right under their noses.

The rebels also got away in TESB, so I don't understand your point.

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4. The Dreadnaught fires on the base first, and not the cruiser already in orbit, even though the base is going nowhere and the cruiser can leave at anytime.

The fact that the cruiser could flee was rather immaterial. As General Hux said, "They cannot get away, Supreme Leader. We have them tied to the end of a string."

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5. The Dreadnaught is ill-equipped to take down a single X wing fighter.

Just like every other capital ship in the Star Wars universe ever.

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6. How can the First Order track the cruiser at all?

The First Order invented new hyperspace tracking technology. That was what Finn and Rose were trying to disable.

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7. If the First Order can track the cruiser, why not the Millennium Falcon?

I assume they could have tracked the Millenium Falcon through a hyperspace jump if they wanted to. Why do you believe otherwise?

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8. Why can Kylo fly through the cruiser’s shields and destroy the main hangar bay?

The same way a couple of A-Wings were able to fly through a Super Star Destroyer's shields and destroy its shield generators and then a single damaged A-Wing was able to destroy the Super Star Destroyer itself in RotJ.

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9. If Kylo can do this, and if 2 Tie Fighters, of all things, can blow up the cruiser bridge even though Star Destroyer blasts aren’t penetrating the shields, why not send a vast assortment of Tie fighters to take out the then-nearly unarmed cruiser and its escorts?

Why take the chance on losing any fighters if you can just wait for the ships to run out of fuel and then blast them? Also, Hux and Snoke probably enjoyed the sadism of it all.

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10. Why do they call Kylo back when he needs no support (since there is no opposition)?

'Cause he was too valuable a person to risk that the resistance had a trap to spring?

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11. How do they know how much fuel the cruiser has in the first place,

All they needed to know is that they have more fuel than the cruiser--much more.

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and why do they not cut the cruiser off (send some Star Destroyers through hyperspace some ways ahead, ie setting a trap, like any ordinary person would)?

Because hyperspace doesn't work that way in Star Wars. These kind of short range "microjumps" are possible only near significant gravity wells.

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12. How does Leia not die immediately in space?

Strange but true fact... Experiments have shown that humans can probably survive the vacuum of space for a couple of minutes. It took Leia less than that to return to the ship. (I am also not sure why this bothers you but Luke projecting himself across parsecs or transporting Han's lucky dice that same distance does not.)

I am bumping up against the 5k character limit, and I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, so I'll stop here.

I guess I don't understand how you can both like the original trilogy and find these kinds of "plot holes" troublesome. Pretty much each of these has an analog in one or more of the original trilogy.

Xonathan · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2017, 01:55:11 AM »

I really liked the movie. I also agree with what most people have said here. The only thing I wished they would have done differently was how they ended things with Luke. I feel like he should have been there in person fighting Kylo and either given up the ghost there or have barely lived and die in the next film having a conversation with Rey beforehand. It would have been cool to the see the “Last Jedi” have a really awesome last fight sequence and even have Luke somehow pass off his x wing to Poe. Just my two cents.

Master Q · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2017, 03:20:08 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 17, 2017, 08:46:48 PM

I guess I don't understand how you can both like the original trilogy and find these kinds of "plot holes" troublesome. Pretty much each of these has an analog in one or more of the original trilogy.

Most of the things you addressed are indeed nitpick-y. But the OT developed its characters and themes so well you don't usually dwell on the "plot holes" (which are not nearly as bad as some of these, the worst things that could actually be called "plot holes", the things you did not address).

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3. The First Order has more Star Destroyers (and a Dreadnaught) than the Empire did when they cornered the rebels on Hoth, and there are fewer rebels now to deal with. Yet, somehow, the rebels escape right under their noses.

The rebels also got away in TESB, so I don't understand your point.

Much of that movie is showing what a threat the Empire actually is. The Hoth battle, the Millennium Falcon chase, the control they hold over the galaxy (taking over Bespin); all of these establish them as a real threat to be taken seriously. This movie portrays the First Order as bumbling incompetents who cannot deal with one resistance cruiser (the ship Star Destroyers are designed to battle can outrun them, but the ship Leia is on in A New Hope, a much smaller, nimbler ship, cannot?).

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5. The Dreadnaught is ill-equipped to take down a single X wing fighter.
Just like every other capital ship in the Star Wars universe ever.

It was dumb in RotJ, and it doesn't excuse it here. It's been roughly 30 yrs in universe since the OT. Do they not know how to better protect large ships?

---
This movie throws away characters and previous setups in a desperate attempt to "move on" from the OT. It's an appreciated notion, but it's so rushed and poorly-executed that it comes off as sloppy and insulting. Weird from a burgeoning franchise built entirely on nostalgia (TFA and Rogue One exist nearly purely on it) to now condemn that same nostalgia in such a heavy-handed, obvious way for the sake of distancing and differentiation.

Long story short, we can probably agree to disagree forever. SW thrives on familiarity, so it will be impossible for it to please everyone (especially the diehard fans of every form of SW media). Looking at the movie as a movie, some of the decisions make no sense to me, the plot is all over the place, and the tone is confused, so I dislike it for that. Looking at the movie as a SW movie, it's disappointing to see such wasted potential, given that it could have been so much better with just a few minor tweaks.

Perhaps I've just grown cynical, but if Guardians of the Galaxy 2 can surprise me by being one of my favorite movies of the year (alongside 3 Billboards, Get Out, Bladerunner, etc), then it's quite impressive for a movie I was actually really hyped to see disappoint me so greatly. $:-\$

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2017, 06:45:19 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on December 18, 2017, 03:20:08 PM

Long story short, we can probably agree to disagree forever.

Can we agree on the following?

Good things:
1. Mark Hamill tore up his scenes
2. Kylo Ren is the best/most nuanced antagonist in any SW movie.
3. The Rey/Kylo team up battle is amazing.
4. The Rey/Kylo long distance communication stuff was good.
5. Carrie Fisher's acting was excellent.
6. Visuals/music were typical SW.

Not so good things:
1. The main rebellion story line was just a slow motion chase.
2. The casino mission existed just to give Finn/Rose something to do
3. There were all the typical SW plot holes.
4. The rebellion's brilliant escape plan was a big old rusty door.
5. Po should be arrested a a traitor.

Master Q · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2017, 08:05:18 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 18, 2017, 06:45:19 PM

Can we agree on the following?

Good things:
1. Mark Hamill tore up his scenes - He was good for what he was asked to do, but you can't convince me that Mark didn't get to play the character he wanted to and wasn't disappointed with their choices.

2. Kylo Ren is the best/most nuanced antagonist in any SW movie. - Best, no; most nuanced, yes. Most interesting, yes. Perhaps the third movie will clear up some things about him, but right now too much is unanswered.

3. The Rey/Kylo team up battle is amazing. - It was a cool sequence, despite Rey's inexplicable combat mastery against well-trained foes.

4. The Rey/Kylo long distance communication stuff was good. - Take out the awkward humor and it is.

5. Carrie Fisher's acting was excellent. - Didn't particularly stand out to me, as I think she's just passable in the OT and these movies.

6. Visuals/music were typical SW. - Goes without saying. But they reuse so much of the OT music.

Not so good things:
1. The main rebellion story line was just a slow motion chase. - Considering this is a large bulk of the story, this is a pretty big negative.

2. The casino mission existed just to give Finn/Rose something to do - Yes, absolutely pointless and distracting.

3. There were all the typical SW plot holes. - Yes, and then some.

4. The rebellion's brilliant escape plan was a big old rusty door. Pretty poor plan, but considering they were desperate and on the run, I'm surprised they had a plan at all.

5. Po should be arrested a a traitor. Yes, but worse, how Admiral Dern got any sort of position of power is beyond me.

h20tor · « **Reply #20 on:** December 18, 2017, 09:26:15 PM »

So I just saw the movie today (for the first time) and while I am still processing everything, my main thing I would say is this:

They set up a ton of things in the Force Awakens for these new movies and they did not follow through with them or just kind of shrugged them off (examples: Snoke, Luke's role, Rey's parents).

This movie felt like it was a sequel and a half like it tried to cover ground that should have been left to the third portion of the trilogy.

I still liked the movie, wish there were was a huge blowout fight for Luke (an actual one fight) before his 'exit' (he could come back for the next one as a ghost,) from the series.

Also, I like Kylo Ren, but dang... still trying to figure him out, he is SO dysfunctional.

I think the movie left me wanting more. I mean I will always watch more star wars but this was in an incomplete way. I'm still processing it.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2017, 10:03:50 AM »

Master Q, I think we are pretty much in agreement as to what worked and didn't in TLJ. We differ in how we weight the importance of the various items and how we feel about the conclusion of Luke's arc. As to the former I think that is a matter of personal viewing preferences. As to the latter, the real problem with Luke's arc, IMO, isn't in what took place on the island, as much as it was Luke's handling of Ben Solo years earlier.

Luke was willing to grant Darth Vader the benefit of the doubt but gave up almost immediately on his nephew? If you can buy into that first step then turning into hermit curmudgeon Luke is a logical conclusion. Given Kylo's response to Rey's offer of redemption, I am willing to entertain the possibility that maybe (just maybe) Luke's initial reaction made sense. We will have to wait until IX to see.

Just two quick questions:

Quote from: Master Q on December 18, 2017, 08:05:18 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 18, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
2. Kylo Ren is the best/most nuanced antagonist in any SW movie. - Best, no; most nuanced, yes. Most interesting, yes. Perhaps the third movie will clear up some things about him, but right now too much is unanswered.

In your opinion who was a better SW antagonist than Kylo Ren (and why)?

3. The Rey/Kylo team up battle is amazing. - It was a cool sequence, despite Rey's inexplicable combat mastery against well-trained foes.

Given that you have mentioned Rey's continuing Mary Sue-ness as an issue a couple of times, how in the world did you love TFA? To me that was one of the most annoying things about TFA...

Rey--who has never been off planet--can jump in and pilot the Millenium Falcon. Not pilot it in the sense of just minimally get it flying--whioch would by itself be silly--but actually pilot it better than Han Solo. Not to mention when the Millenium Falcon needs repairs, Rey is better and diagnosing and fixing the problem then Han Solo. That is only one of a dozen examples and is by itself 100x worse then any problems with Rey in TLJ.

Quote from: h20tor on December 18, 2017, 09:26:15 PM

Also, I like Kylo Ren, but dang... still trying to figure him out, he is SO dysfunctional.

Dude is definitely messed up, dawg.

Master Q · « **Reply #22 on:** December 19, 2017, 12:57:21 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 19, 2017, 10:03:50 AM

As to the latter, the real problem with Luke's arc, IMO, isn't in what took place on the island, as much as it was Luke's handling of Ben Solo years earlier.

Yes. That is not Luke Skywalker as established in the OT. This is some other character.

In response to other Qs:

- Darth Vader is better. Even Kylo thinks so.

In presence, threat level, accomplishments, and character arc, Vader is far better as a villain to overcome. His character is the entire crux of SW. Kylo is easily second best, though if he isn't redeemed in the final movie, or if they do something different than what they did with Vader, he might turn out to be the best (though I wish his motivations and temptations to turn were fleshed out more).

- I accepted Rey in TFA since she was so similar to Luke in New Hope, and her character was so charismatic and likable. I assumed she was assisted by the force (since we didn't know her parentage, it was still possible she was Luke's daughter or something to explain her natural talent), and also that she would learn something in the next movie, possibly make a mistake or be bested or something, like Luke was. But she isn't humbled or punished or revealed to have any sort of character flaw. She isn't tempted by the dark side at all, and there is no real foreshadowing like there was with Luke to show that she would be later on. There will not be anything like the final confrontation with Luke vs Vader and the Emperor from RotJ (imo, the best moment in SW) in episode 9.

TFA is pretty much ruined for me now that I know that all the character achievements and nearly everything built up in that movie end up meaningless. I'll still see the next episode, but I have no real investment anymore. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 23, 2017, 05:23:16 AM »

I saw the movie this weekend.

Pros:
Visually stunning!
Kylo Ren is awesome!!!
Awesome way to kill off the Supreme Leader, because it was believable. Kylo new he was reading his mind and focused the event command "opening light saber". Crafty considering there were two of them.
Hyperdrive Kamikaze!
Village people on the island/birds!
Casino atmosphere
Drunk, midget-alien thinking droid was a slot machine and enjoying his riches amidst the entire place being demolished hehe

Cons:
- Plot
- The first order general was straight out of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory. I half expected the small slave children to find a golden ticket lying around in the end.
-Apparently all the rebels are SJWs?
-Missed opportunity for epic fight scene. Or maybe Disney probably thought they did us a favor. They were like "glad we didn't just copy the vader-obiwan kenobi fight scene like we copied everything else???" Yeah I was sort of glad but still rolled my eyes at the allusion to it and did worse when I realized that the hologram was functionally the same thing. Luke's hologram powers huh? wow so innovative for jedi powers

-Mutiny was confusing
- Way to much projection of (perceived) modern culture and values (e.g., multicultural cast, sjws, ADD, instinct gratification plot switching, humor style), gross enough in movies today, though sometimes appropriate when fleshed out, but not at all appropriate in the starwars universe because these references take you right out of this mythical place and back to our problems here. Couple this with "Great Gatsby's casino" and I was starting to wander if the star wars universe was just a new age rather than alternate universe.
- useless, wasted plot points. For example, rey's further training on the island, in order to acquire more jedi skills and wisdom, culminates in her vicariously destroying the supreme leader. Additionally, hyperdrive-trackage-disabelly mission thingy, mutiny??, and Pirates of the Caribbean type humor, all took up substantial chunks of time which could have otherwise been spent on um idk more exploration of planets, space/land battles, and/or lightsaber duals.
-Lea woke up from her space coma
-Luke being a jerk
- Rose. She had no business being there! I literally thought she would have been done after drooling over finn's legacy. But no, instead she took up major screen time in a piece of the plot that was a serious tangent. Their relationship wasn't developed at all so im not even sure if he still wants to date rey or likes rose. I hope he still likes rey because I don't want to throw up in the theater next year... I really hope rose likes finn and finn likes rey and rey likes po and none of their dreams work out. Because it's interesting and none of these crushes have been fleshed out enough, amidst the whole destroy the empire and use the force plot points, to justify any of them coming to fruition. And mainly because I secretly hope she and kylo are a thing.... they have the only love story with depth to this point and would be a nice couple imo, ruling for good or evil. I doubt Disney has the guts to make this happen.

My biggest wow moments were surrounded by contradictions. I thought the rebels were finally powerful and cool now after seeing the first space battle and had visions of Luke going full yoda on everyone. I still had hope when the hyper-drive trick overshadowed the mutiny. But no, they are still the luckiest bunch of girl scouts you could imagine as they all wisk away to their new sitcom: "All in the Millennium Falcon". Luke had more depth as a character in this movie than in the original series. He was darker and did not have the feel of the cliche protagonist who is pure to the point of being self-righteous or just plain foolish (like rey). This depth was great but in the end all of the time devoted to his complex character didn't amount to anything complex, he didn't go full yoda on Kilo or join him, but rather pulled an obi-wan kenobi.

Kilo helping rey by killing the supreme leader and fighting the guards was a wow factor but ended with her acting like he didn't do anything for her. She could have at least acknowledged his obvious crush on her by either joining him or spitting right in his face. Either would have been fine and would have helped to extenuate the genius goal of Disney to uncover what pure evil looks like. In real life good manifests itself as caring for the majority at the expense of a few, while the opposite is true for evil. I thought Kylo Ren's narrow goals of luring rey to the dark side because of her apparent skill and and direct orders in TFA blossomed nicely into infatuation for her. In other words Kylo and Reys interactions had a nice, albeit accelerated, Anakin-Padme feel.

That and the mini alien at the casino saved the movie for me. I was not saved at all by TFA.

Daniel · « **Reply #24 on:** December 23, 2017, 11:28:50 AM »

Quote

Way to much projection of (perceived) modern culture and values (e.g., multicultural cast)

Please explain what is wrong with a multicultural cast.

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