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The Avengers wasn't artistic at all. It was pretty much just an action comedy with just enough story to make the action not completely overdone. I understand that some people may enjoy that better, but some people also enjoy Justin Bieber more than The Beetles (which is fine), and I don't think anybody would argue that Bieber is the superior artist.

FWIW, my favorite superhero movie ever was Batman Begins, with TDK coming in at second.

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The Dark Knight, from an artistic standpoint, is inarguably the better superhero movie ever made.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I agree, it is obviously not inarguably better, or else people wouldn't be arguing the other way.  I for one when I saw TDK didn't see this "GREATEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME" I kept hearing that TDK was (although I think it was a very good movie), and I personally like the Avengers more.

My apologies. What I meant was that any film critic, director, or anyone who has taken the time to seriously study the artistic merit of film and cinema who would say that The Avengers was a better made movie or that it had more artistic merit than The Dark Knight would be in the minority by a massive margin. I'm not being arrogant or presumptuous here, as I actual find The Avengers as a more enjoyable and watchable movie, but in overall quality, The Dark Knight is miles ahead of The Avengers.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on May 06, 2012, 04:39:50 PM

FWIW, my favorite superhero movie ever was Batman Begins, with TDK coming in at second.

You'll have to explain at MN state...

I found Batman Begins to be more watchable and accessible, so I can see where he's coming from.

I'll start out by saying I haven't gone to see the Avengers yet, even though I really want to.  I do want to put out this thought to hopefully clarify the debate between TDK and the Avengers.

It comes down to what criterion you are using for comparison.  I judge a film on the film's themes, morals, and general philosophical undertones.  TDK does amazing in this category which is why Chris, and RingWraith, I, and so many other people think it's awesome. From what I understand the Avengers did not do as well in this category. 

Other people judge a good film off different criteria however.  So if you are basing you decision off of the entertainment value or off of the fact that Robert Downey Jr. is in it makes for a different outcome.

Anyhow, I just thought it would be good to point that out.

Blessings,

Wings

Lol, sources please.

Sources? From Metacritic, a couple publications gave them equal scores, and I count four publications that gave The Avengers a better score, and at least one of them is notoriously predisposed towards lighter, more accessible films. The source is that The Dark Knight has better overall ratings than The Avengers and has better ratings from more respected critics. The vast majority of people who have spent their lives studying this agree that The Dark Knight is the superior film, regardless of actual personal preference. (Note: I use Metacritic over Rotten Tomatoes because it is more selective in what reviews it uses. I also wasn't going to check the scores of 200 different reviews, so I figured roughly 40 would be a large enough sample size, since TDK still came up on top on Rotten Tomatoes with both general critics and the "cream of the crop.")

The writing by Joss isn't anything short of a masterpiece considering the number of personas vs TDK. Galadgawyn summed up TDK quite well.

Yes and no. One of the big things that's praised about The Avengers is how Joss managed to balance six main characters and give each of them a moment. That's definitely one of Joss' strong suits, though I feel like he's never done it better than in Firefly. That said, that balance and the humor are the only things that are even close to masterful in The Avengers. The plot itself is one of the big complaints people have, and while the plot definitely wasn't the focus of the film, you can't call Joss' writing a "masterpiece" with a weak plot. (For the record, I love Whedon, and the fact that he directed was the main reason I went to see it opening weekend.)

Also, the fact Avengers was shot in 3D makes Avengers a million times better than TDK.

Unfortunately, I cannot see in one eye, so I have no idea if The Avengers actually used 3D properly or not, but by this logic, Avatar (Cameron's film, not The Last Airbender) is the best film of all time, since, from everything I've read, no film has topped Avatar's use of 3D.

Other people judge a good film off different criteria however.  So if you are basing you decision off of the entertainment value or off of the fact that Robert Downey Jr. is in it makes for a different outcome.

I like watching The Avengers more for these reasons, but I respect the Dark Knight more. The Avengers sought to entertain, and succeeded, but that's a lot easier than seeking to influence and succeeding, which is what The Dark Knight did.

Here's my comparison.

Scarlett Johansson > Maggie Gyllenhaal

I really, really don't like Gyllenhaal, so yeah, I pretty much agree wholeheartedly.

Quote from: Master KChief on May 06, 2012, 06:15:23 PM

Lol, sources please.

Sources? From Metacritic, a couple publications gave them equal scores, and I count four publications that gave The Avengers a better score, and at least one of them is notoriously predisposed towards lighter, more accessible films. The source is that The Dark Knight has better overall ratings than The Avengers and has better ratings from more respected critics. The vast majority of people who have spent their lives studying this agree that The Dark Knight is the superior film, regardless of actual personal preference. (Note: I use Metacritic over Rotten Tomatoes because it is more selective in what reviews it uses. I also wasn't going to check the scores of 200 different reviews, so I figured roughly 40 would be a large enough sample size, since TDK still came up on top on Rotten Tomatoes with both general critics and the "cream of the crop.")

But we're not debating scores. Your initial argument was anyone (undefined) seriously studying the artistic merits (also undefined) of films would say TDK is a better movie than Avengers based on those merits. You haven't presented anything at all suggesting TDK is better than Avengers on 'artistic' merit. You simply provided a handful of critic scores, which span many, many, many different reasons and surely not just on 'artistic' merit alone.

Yes and no. One of the big things that's praised about The Avengers is how Joss managed to balance six main characters and give each of them a moment. That's definitely one of Joss' strong suits, though I feel like he's never done it better than in Firefly. That said, that balance and the humor are the only things that are even close to masterful in The Avengers. The plot itself is one of the big complaints people have, and while the plot definitely wasn't the focus of the film, you can't call Joss' writing a "masterpiece" with a weak plot. (For the record, I love Whedon, and the fact that he directed was the main reason I went to see it opening weekend.)

How exactly was the plot weak? How was the plot not exactly like every stereotypical plot injected into any superhero movie ever created? Superhero beats bad villians, everyone goes home? The beauty is in how Whedon can move past that and take even the most stereotypical genre and serve us the Creme de la Creme of superhero movies. Personally, I am not a fan of superhero movies or even the genre in general. But I left that IMAX theater last night with a deep respect that could only be obtained through pure talent and an expertly woven tale.

Unfortunately, I cannot see in one eye, so I have no idea if The Avengers actually used 3D properly or not, but by this logic, Avatar (Cameron's film, not The Last Airbender) is the best film of all time, since, from everything I've read, no film has topped Avatar's use of 3D.

I have since retracted and rescinded this point, I'm pretty sure some scenes in TDK were shot in 3D. As far as Avatar, it's getting to be a dated movie now, so it can come as no surprise that 3D technology is getting better and better. Seeing the IMAX 3D trailer for Spider-Man with him swinging over Manhattan was nothing short of AMAZING.

Quote from: Chris on May 06, 2012, 06:51:01 PM

Unfortunately, I cannot see in one eye

I'm now starting to envision you wearing an eye-patch, a braided beard, and a cutlass, saying, "Arrrggg, I'm makin a rescue attempt wit' me shipmate De Angel Unner De Oak"

I've heard way, way too many of these jokes over the years. 

But we're not debating scores. Your initial argument was anyone (undefined) seriously studying the artistic merits (also undefined) of films would say TDK is a better movie than Avengers based on those merits. You haven't presented anything at all suggesting TDK is better than Avengers on 'artistic' merit. You simply provided a handful of critic scores, which span many, many, many different reasons and surely not just on 'artistic' merit alone.

When I said anyone seriously studying the artistic merits of film, I meant film critics who have spent their lives judging movies, and have the educational background to understand what the art and film community considers good, and give their opinions (and back them up) accordingly. People who legitimately know what they're talking about.

How exactly was the plot weak? How was the plot not exactly like every stereotypical plot injected into any superhero movie ever created? Superhero beats bad villians, everyone goes home? The beauty is in how Whedon can move past that and take even the most stereotypical genre and serve us the Creme de la Creme of superhero movies. Personally, I am not a fan of superhero movies or even the genre in general. But I left that IMAX theater last night with a deep respect that could only be obtained through pure talent and an expertly woven tale.

Exactly. The plot was pretty much like every single other superhero movie ever created. Doing a bad thing really well doesn't suddenly make it good. The characterization was good (though Whedon did have the help of multiple prequels, he still kept the standard [which was quite high]), but that's not what I'm talking about when I say the plot, I'm talking about what actually drives the story. Calling The Avengers the "creme de la creme of superhero movies" is just wrong, because that term implies a certain level of sophistication and class, and it had none of that. It was a really, really fun ride, but that's all. If you really thought it was an expertly woven tale, I advise you to read more literature like Faulkner, Whitman, or Hawthorne. If you prefer epic tales, then look at Lord of the Rings or Ringworld. If you're looking for a rip-roaring good time, then look at The Avengers.

I see alot of 'art' being thrown around but absolutely no one backing up the value that entails.

When I refer to the "artistic merits" of the Dark Knight, I'm referring to themes it employs, the subjects it attempts to tackle, and the overall visual style of the film, and most importantly, how it brings these things together and how it executes them overall. The themes and subjects are things like government corruption, overcoming fear, whether the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, whether a person can be redeemed, what changes a person, etc. Some of these it really focuses on, others it only glances at, but it does approach these issues in a very subtle, masterful manner, and gives each theme its own satisfying answer, implies that an answer will be given in the sequel, or is just enough to make the audience think. Additionally, the whole "dark, gritty" world gives it a unique visual feel, and I think is a good mix between movies like The Watchmen, 300, and Spirit (which really take the whole comic book thing to heart) and regular dramas or action flicks. Comparatively, The Avengers' main theme is "how to get along well with others" and (to a lesser extent) the whole "humanity was made to serve" thing that's never really elaborated on.

Avengers "Shatter" old record for the biggest debut is history!
Read this: http://movies.yahoo.com/news/box-office-shocker-avengers-opens-record-shattering-200-155614945.html

LotR is a bore to me. The trilogy is summed up by walking. Walk some more. Drop some jewelry in a volcano. Fin.

You do realize you just lost all credibility in this argument, right?

Quote from: Chris on May 06, 2012, 06:51:01 PM

Unfortunately, I cannot see in one eye

I'm now starting to envision you wearing an eye-patch, a braided beard, and a cutlass, saying, "Arrrggg, I'm makin a rescue attempt wit' me shipmate De Angel Unner De Oak" 

Nick Fury>Pirates. Well, Samuel L. Jackson>Pirates...

Wrong eye unfortunately. I'm more Odin.

That is not what I call unfortunate.

That's all well and good, but if you genuinely believe The Avengers has as much artistic merit as The Dark Knight, then you simply don't understand the art of film, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I thought it was the best superhero movie ever made! It exceed my expectations!

Quote from: Chris on May 06, 2012, 09:39:11 PM

That's all well and good, but if you genuinely believe The Avengers has as much artistic merit as The Dark Knight, then you simply don't understand the art of film, and there's nothing wrong with that.

That's all well and good, but if you genuinely believe The Dark Knight has as much artistic merit as The Avengers, then you simply don't understand the art of film, and there's nothing wrong with that.



Simply stating it does not make it true.

Stop being ridiculous. There's well established analytical tools, methods, and archetypes we can use to examine films/stories/etc. While not all are always useful or valid, many of them are. If we use them to look at the Avengers vs. Batman Begins or TDK, we can clearly see that as a story, the Avengers is subpar to Nolan Batman. Sure, the Avengers is funnier, but BB and TDK have significantly more to say about life.

Nolan Batman is more artistic than the Avengers. That's just how it is. If you want to try to argue otherwise, I'm going to have to ask you what plot or symbolic elements in the Avengers show it has artistic merit at all, and why those merits outweigh themes such as the power of Fear in BB - I'm thinking of the ending sequences in the Narrows, for example, in which BB seems a little similar to some works of CS Lewis in that hell is what happens when man is abandoned to his fear and worry.

Stop being ridiculous. There's well established analytical tools, methods, and archetypes we can use to examine films/stories/etc.

Of which none of these 'tools', 'methods' nor 'archetypes' has yet surfaced in this thread to produce a shred of credibility as to why TDK is more artistic than Avengers. Again, all I hear is alot of talk and personal bias, not anywhere close to an ounce of substance.

If we use them to look at the Avengers vs. Batman Begins or TDK...

Please, please feel so inclined to do so instead of merely talking about it.

we can clearly see that as a story, the Avengers is subpar to Nolan Batman.

Oh, more of that talk.

Sure, the Avengers is funnier, but BB...

BB has never once been mentioned by me. Feel free to debate it at your own pleasure, but surely not on my account.

...and TDK have significantly more to say about life.

Disagree. There is great value to find humor in life, even in the most dramatic moments. And surely not the only circumspective glimpse on life shared by the movie.

Nolan Batman is more artistic than the Avengers. That's just how it is.

Oooooh, more of that. -_-

If you want to try to argue otherwise, I'm going to have to ask you what plot or symbolic elements in the Avengers show it has artistic merit at all...

So are we now finally defining what the artistic merits actually are as they are applied towards movies? So let me get this straight: besides plot elements (which all movies have), are you trying to suggest mere symbolism is what makes a movie 'artistic'?

Also, shouldn't the one so vehemently spouting the marginally greater artistic virtues of TDK be providing the proof? You know, that whole backing up what you claim thing?

and why those merits outweigh themes such as the power of Fear in BB - I'm thinking of the ending sequences in the Narrows, for example, in which BB seems a little similar to some works of CS Lewis in that hell is what happens when man is abandoned to his fear and worry.

Lol, never once was drawing comparisons to BB. You can have any argument there, I haven't even seen the movie.