Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Deck Concepts => Topic started by: Red Dragon Thorn on December 01, 2009, 01:10:08 AM
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This is the deck that I came up with to abuse both ANB and Gates of Hell, I revealed it to certain key playtesters, and as a result, recently had ANB re-errataed.
James Roepke gets credit for coming up with the base combo, which I then improved and built into the following.
Gabe Isbell gets credit for building the T1 deck
Rob Anderson gets credit for creating the game of Redemption and allowing me to break it ;)
The Playtesters get credit for putting me back in my place ;)
Cards in deck: 100
Lost Souls: 14
Lost Soul (Color Guard) X 2
Lost Soul (deck discard) X 2
Lost Soul (Female Only) X 2
Lost Soul (Protector) X 2
Lost Soul (shuffler) X 2
Lost Soul (Site Discard) X 2
Lost Soul (Wanderer) X 2
Lamb Dominants: 4
Angel of the Lord
Grapes of Wrath
Guardian Of Your Souls
Son of God
Grim Reaper Dominants: 4
Burial
Christian Martyr
Destruction of Nehushtan
Falling Away
Fortresses: 3
The Gates of Hell X 3
Green Sites: 10
Halah X 5
Prison of Asa X 5
Crimson Curse Cards: 3
Captured Ark (Crimson) X 3
Gold Covenant Cards: 3
I am Healing X 3
Multi-Color Heroes: 2
Elishana the Priest (Teal) X 2
Red Heroes: 5
Asahel X 2
King Jehoshaphat X 3
Green Heroes: 2
King Asa X 2
Purple Heroes: 3
Ethiopian Treasurer X 2
Multi-Color Hero Enhancements: 1
Brass Serpent
Red Hero Enhancements: 10
A Soldier's Prayer X 5
Warrior's Spear X 5
Green Hero Enhancements: 1
A New Beginning
Purple Hero Enhancements: 7
Authority of Christ X 2
Unified Kingdom X 5
Pale Green Evil Characters: 5
King Jehoiakin
Messenger of Satan X 2
Prince of this World
User of Curious Arts
Black Evil Characters: 1
The Twelve-Fingered Giant
Gray Evil Characters: 6
King Pekahiah
Sabbath Breaker X 5
Brown Evil Characters: 1
Gomer
Pale Green Evil Enhancements: 7
Confusion X 2
Divination X 5
Gray Evil Enhancements: 2
False Peace X 2
Orange Evil Characters: 4
Wandering Spirit X 2
King of Tyrus
Spirit of Temptation
Multi-Color Evil Characters :2
Astrologers
Damsel with Spirit of Divination
So – Here is the basic premise of the combo – Full complements go to Hanno102 who helped me with the implementation of the combo.
After sitting and searching, drawing, and using cards like Divination to manipulate the deck – You have the following cards in your hand -
Brass Serpent, or I am Healing
Gates of Hell
Warrior's Spear X 2
Green Site X 2
Unified Kingdom
You cannot have any extra cards in your hand – If this means discarding Dominants, do so.
Play Gates down and use it to discard your entire deck, this pulls out your Orange Demons and your Lost Souls – Then Play either I am Healing or Brass Serpent to pull out the 5 Heroes in the deck -
Elishana
ET
King Asa (Green)
Asahel (TexP)
King Jehoshapat (Red)
Now the fun part – move the Deck discarding lost soul into one of your two green sites, move the Color Guard into the other – (Alternatively, you can hold just one Warriors spear and play an additional green site with another Deck discarder, which is actually what I liked to do the most)
Begin a rescue attempt with Ethiopian Treasurer, play Unified Kingdom.
Elishana enters battle and places the newly Errataed ANB onto King Asa.
King Jehoshapat enters battle and Warriors spear discards the top card of opponents deck.
Asahel enters battle, at this point you declare targeting of UK done, Asahel's Spear activates.
King Asa gets banded into battle by Asahel, and then ANB activates off of him.
The following gets shuffled – Everything in battle less ANB, Gates, 2 Green sites. (Thorns LS keeps the LS' out, and Color Guard keeps all your Demons down)
If you performed the Combo correctly then only 11 cards should be left in your deck – Thus because you draw 11 on your new turn with ANB you can wash, rinse and repeat until your opponent has no cards left in his deck. At this point you switch to the Hand discard lost soul until the only cards that your opponent has left are lost souls for you to jauntily rescue. Additionally, after the combo is rolling it has very, very few counters, and by very few I mean 3 or 4.
I called the deck 'The Judges Bane' because of this funny reason – If I go First in the game then the game doesn't end until my opponent takes his last turn – Meaning that I can go as far past time limit as need be to finish what I am doing.
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Full Credit to Gabe Isbell for the following T1 implementation of the deck:
50 cards
7 Doms
Angel of the Lord
Grapes of Wrath
Son of God
Burial
Christian Martyr
Destruction of Nehushtan
Falling Away
3 Art/Cov/Curse
The Bronze Laver
I am Healing
Captured Ark
1 Fort
The Gates of Hell
4 Sites
Desolate City
Halah
Lycaonia
Prison of Asa
8 Souls
Lost Soul (color guard)
Lost Soul (deck discard)
Lost Soul (hopper)
Lost Soul (shuffler)
Lost Soul (site discard)
Lost Soul (thorns)
Lost Soul (wanderer)
Lost Souls (3-line)
5 Heroes
King Asa
Ethiopian Treasurer
King Jehoshaphat
Asahel
Elishana the Priest
8 Enhancements
Brass Serpent
Feast of Trumpets
Pentecost
A New Beginning
Great Faith
Unified Kingdom
Warrior's Spear
A Soldier’s Prayer
10 ECs
Damsel with Spirit of Divination
Astrologers
Sabbath Breaker
King of Tyrus
Prince of this World
Fallen Angel
Deceiving Spirit
Wandering Spirit
Spirit of Temptation
Users of Curious Arts
4 EEs
False Peace
Worshipping Demons
Divination
Confusion
Gabe can correct me if I'm wrong, but the deck went 8-2 under his guidance with the only full loss coming to me, and I knew it was coming.
The T1 Version is inherrently more fragile than the Type 2 above, because you can only have one copy of each lost soul, and if your opponent manages to get through 3 times before you can hit the combo, you're dead in the water.
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I knew that the Playtesters were leaning towards an errata that would remove ANB from the game, I actually had a plan for this.
The combo is equally doable with Book of the Law and Jehoram in place of Jehosaphat and Elishana, Book of the Law would have prevented ANB from being removed so that I could still recur it.
Huge kudos to the entire playtesting team for catching that and wording the Errata in such a way that it is a Cost ability instead of an additional ability.
RDT
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I totally played against this deck (or some version of it) when Gabe used it and didn't realize this was what you guys were talking about. *facepalm*
The recursion was awful. Such a sinister scheme :P
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I also played against a version of this deck, and see the potential that it had to break the game. Congrats to all the people who came up with the idea. It was quite creative and elaborate.
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I also played against this deck and I am proud to actually have circumvented it, barely albeit.
It is too bad that this doesn't work anymore. Props to those who made it; it was a great work.
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Seriously, kudos around. :thumbup:
But RDT, Hanno and Gabe, you just destroyed even the slightest chance that I would ever get back in the game by emasculating ANB even more. :-\
And I don't mean that in a Favre-ish way. ;)
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So you discard their deck and keep restarting the game?
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Precisely, I simply continue to reset the deck until they have no cards left with which to play - Usually takes about 30 itterations or so.
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In retrospect, A New Beginning should have been multi-color and removed itself from the game when it was printed.
Once per game is plenty. Even God prefers not to do it more than once. ;)
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I don't post much, but I did figure that it would be slightly appropriate to post here.
Yes, I did come up with that combo, and yes, I did technically build the first deck around the combo. At which point, I decided that there was no way I ever wanted to play against the combo or even play it myself. So, I told John and let him play around with it for a while (and he came up with a somewhat viable deck at the same time, which I hadn't done). Also, I arranged for us to play the deck against Chris Bany - who pretty much agreed with my assessment and brought it to the playtesting community.
Kudos to John for playing his version enough to finally get the errata I was looking for and to Gabe for coming up with a T1 version, which I didn't really think was possible.
Oh, and incidentally, this combo resulted from experimentation with an entirely different combo which is still doable, and may even see play later >:).
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In retrospect, A New Beginning should have been multi-color and removed itself from the game when it was printed.
Once per game is plenty. Even God prefers not to do it more than once. ;)
Actually twice, but that's probably just the petulance talking.
:laugh:
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I also played against a version of this deck, and see the potential that it had to break the game. Congrats to all the people who came up with the idea. It was quite creative and elaborate.
You know a deck is going to break the game when it uses Book of the Law as part of a combo ::)
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It doesn't ;) It could though.
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Awww :( Darn, Anb abuse lost a bit of its fun, Oh wells.
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So ANB now says once per game? That's lame. Just because of this one card?
It's starting to seem to me that if you get an amazing combo, the game will change to ruin your combo. At least win nationals before this deck is deemed "broken." It CAN be beat. I mean, 1 ANB? Can I get a Gabriel? Also, the opponent will always have 8 cards in his hand; this CAN be enough to win. A Child is Born comes to mind. What if they already have chariot in their art pile? Household idols so they can't band? Heck, isn't this why cards like Darius' Decree were made? You have that and this deck is done.
I must say I am EXTREMELY disappointed that one card would be errata'ed because of one deck that hasn't even won a State. As stated, The T1 version only went 8-2, and that's in the hands of a two-time national champion. There are not many people who could possibly win more games than that. And yet we get the errata. This is one GIANT step toward me quitting Redemption.
Oh... cool you thought of an awesome combo? Well, no you didn't cause we just changed the card. I mean... seriously? :(
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No, it says remove from the game to...
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the ruling did seem pretty haphazard. there seems to be many commonly used answers to the deck, and combo decks in and of themselves are pretty much hit or miss if a piece is rendered useless. i personally dont see the type 1 version of the deck going far, and the type 2 version is limited by the new number-of-cards-in-hand rule. i agree, the card/deck should have seen its motions before a ruling was made. i dont think it was that broken at all.
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The hand limit doesn't do anything to the combo.
It's starting to seem to me that if you get an amazing combo, the game will change to ruin your combo. At least win nationals before this deck is deemed "broken." It CAN be beat. I mean, 1 ANB? Can I get a Gabriel? Also, the opponent will always have 8 cards in his hand; this CAN be enough to win. A Child is Born comes to mind. What if they already have chariot in their art pile? Household idols so they can't band? Heck, isn't this why cards like Darius' Decree were made? You have that and this deck is done.
It appears as though you didn't take a close enough look. ANB would be recurred from the discard pile, Gabriel is useless. The hand gets taken out by the Lost Soul. The opponent doesn't have a chance to play ACiB, not that it matters because their entire deck would be discarded by the time the combo is finished. Captured Ark takes care of all Artifact problems.
I played RDT with the type two version and he had the combo up and running in about ~7 turns. The only reason I would have been able to possibly win was because I had the Punisher Lost Soul in my deck, although I didn't feel like playing it out because of how annoying it is to constantly shuffle all the cards and restart. The only other thing that stops this is Christian Martyr played at the right time.
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To KChief - The new number-of-cards-in-hand rule? My hand never goes above 16 with this deck, additionally, once I get going you have exactly 3 counters - Christian Marytr, Mayhem and the Punisher LS
To Lightningninja - Gabriel to discard my ANB - Be my guest. I want it in the discard pile, did you not read the first page, where I clearly state that I pull it back from there with Elishana? Additionally, because I'm shuffling you don't get that Art Pile anymore, and again as I stated in the very first post I also have the two hand discards so you don't even get a hand. I will admit DD and Hezzy's Ring are problems, but thats why I'm packing Captured Arks. The Type 2 version lost one game after its final tweaks - And the Opponent knew it was coming. It won a whole lot more than that in pickup games.
The ANB errata has been needed for some time, not because of this deck, but because it frees up the ability of the playtesters to design new cards without having to worry about ANB abuse. And yes, we do change the rules, why? Because decks like this remove the opponent from the game completely, which Rob and the other leaders have been against since Chris Bany's Destroyer.
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Mayhem
I didn't count that as it only gives a one or two turn reprieve.
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Yeah, but in that time they can play DD which I would then have no answer for, that happened with an earlier version which was slower and included a real D in case something went awry.
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To KChief - The new number-of-cards-in-hand rule? My hand never goes above 16 with this deck, additionally, once I get going you have exactly 3 counters - Christian Marytr, Mayhem and the Punisher LS
i was referring to its impact before you got the combo running. if you have no way to mass draw (as seen in sitc the previous season), then you still have to wait precious turns for the pieces to get to you. precious turns for the opponent to get answers to you. again, i still think the deck is far from 'broken'.
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Wait... what's the full text of the errata'd version? I can't find it anywhere.
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Rob wrote:
Quote
"If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards..."
I am fine with the above proposed errata.
The playtesters are in agreement.
It's official.
I think that makes this the complete ability:
"If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. All players draw 8. Begin a new turn."
From Bryon on the first page of the thread announcing the Errata.
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Ah, thanks.
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I think that makes this the complete ability:
"If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. All players draw 8. Begin a new turn whilst STAMP and EmJayBee weep."
Fixed.
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I think that makes this the complete ability:
"If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. All players draw 8. Begin a new turn whilst STAMP, EmJayBee, and RDT weep."
Re-Fixed.
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RDT - thanks for trusting me with the combo. ;)
Andy - I'm sorry that playing against this deck drove you to quit Redemption for the 37th time. I hope now that it's been errata'd away you'll be back soon. :)
To everyone else who faced the T1 deck - thanks for being good sports about it. It was really fun to try to pull it off but pretty boring once I did. :P
The combo isn't broken because it's so easy to pull off or so hard to stop. Neither of those things are true. It's very hard to play correctly. Of the three games I lost (RDT, Cam, Tracer) two of them were because I played poorly and made mistakes. As MKC has pointed out there are a number of counters available if you know what's coming.
What's broken and called for errata is that a person can take turn after turn after turn with no interaction from their opponent. That goes directly against the spirit of Redemption - Fun and Fellowship!
I think that makes this the complete ability:
"If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. All players draw 8. Begin a new turn and watch grown men cry."
Broken. ::)
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Ahhh, so THIS is the evil combo you were using... hehe.
Andy - I'm sorry that playing against this deck drove you to quit Redemption for the 37th time. I hope now that it's been errata'd away you'll be back soon. :)
I lol'd. :D
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Oh... cool you thought of an awesome combo? Well, no you didn't cause we just changed the card. I mean... seriously? :(
It could be worse, l'Ninja. The PTB could have taken the lazy man's way out and changed the underlying game mechanics--like they did by instituting hand limits--rather than just errating a card.
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I beat the T2 version using one of my regular decks to which I subbed in 2 copies of Darius' Decree and Mayhem, which are fairly useful even when I'm not facing combo decks, because I knew RDT was going to use that deck.
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Yep, you're the final versions one loss Justin. I didn't realize that you'd subbed in those counters though ;) Tricky, tricky.
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nothing don/captured ark cant take care of, right?
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Yeah, I survived his DD's just fine, it was the Mayhem which killed me, I had a shot at Confusioning it, but picked CM instead.
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Ah, I was mistaken about Gabriel. My bad.
Isn't it true though that if the person using this deck places 1-3 cards on the table that isn't part of the "chosen 11," there is a flaw? Which means that one draw of the women at the well ends the game, cause they now have 4 cards to deal with? He has Authority but that would give initiative for evil enhancements. There is now a chance of not drawing what you need. Also... I still stand that 4 demons is not a strong defense. I bet 20% of the time the opponent's hand can own that. Now true, there's the hand discarder. Isn't there also Burial? Another card that ENDS the game.
I think it's weird that people act like there is NO chance to play cards. That is not true. There is time between them starting a turn and them making an ra. Play burial, that gets rid of the deck discarder.
Sin in the Camp decks were WAY better than this, imo. And they didn't get any kind of rule or errata to stop them until nationals. And it still lost a game. Tyler Stevens' deck would have beaten this one too.
Also, what about Samaritan water Jar? If you can get gates with this, game. The defense won't hold out. Side battles with Haman? There are so many ways to stop it but the one we choose is an errata.... this is REALLY discouraging, once again.
EDIT: So what are the 11 cards? I must have miscounted. Also, what happens if you lose your color guard ls? Or one gets rescued earlier cause the defense is so small? Were these not issues?
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Andy - I'm sorry that playing against this deck drove you to quit Redemption for the 37th time. I hope now that it's been errata'd away you'll be back soon. :)
Total wyn!
and for those who think that using gabe to get rid of ANB wont work...You are partlly correct. The real key is Sticking it in the d/c pile and then playing burning up the chaff on gabe right behind it :o
and there are only about ..oh... a gazillion ways to do that (confusion/wonders forgotten)
You can go after the LS's and remove them from the game, you can remove Elishanna from the game you can remove their I am healing or Brass Serpent from the game... if you get any of these cards removed from the game then the combo falls like a house of cards....oh well, too bad no one can build a defense to this deck now....
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Huh, last time I checked I never had any of those problems....... But what do I know, I only built the deck......
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Huh, last time I checked I never had any of those problems....... But what do I know, I only built the deck......
Yeah, but how long did you play it? IF you played it alot against several different people, then there would be a lot more creative defenses to foul up the deck but none of these will be tried now because the deck was already erratta-ed.
One of my favorites recenly is to use high places to throw multiple copied of broken cisterns into your teritory, that way as soon as you put your heros down they die. With an offense like yours, you wouldn't be able to get the combo off the ground because I dont see any cards that would remove evil cards from your territory.
This is what I am saying. I understand ANB was errattaed because the judges were sick and tired of dealing with it, but I just think that players should try to find their own way around a deck every now and then instead of just crying foul every time a deck pulls of a sick combo.
Seriously, if you were playing against your own deck, don't you know about a dozen ways you could undo this combo with several commonly used cards?
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Yes, I know a dozen different ways, I also know that I can counter 3/4 of them, and outsmart another 3/16, its that last 1/16 that beats me every time, and actually believe it or not, I can counter those Cisterns. (It will slow me down though)
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Yes, I know a dozen different ways, I also know that I can counter 3/4 of them, and outsmart another 3/16, its that last 1/16 that beats me every time, and actually believe it or not, I can counter those Cisterns. (It will slow me down though)
and see, there is the rub. I am not saying that you cant beat the cisterns, or any other of the tricks, (although confusion in a sidebattle followed by Forgotten history is the ball game for that deck) but the deal is that with some of these combos, Your deck could probably be beaten before it comboed off. Plus, there is the fact that, I could still beat you even if you d/c my deck. This deck takes a long time to d/c my deck. If I even get 3-4 LS's before you combo off, then I will likely get a time out win. That will be enough to make people rethink playing with this deck.
Like I said, the other deck that I am combatting uses multiple brigades and I use Broken Cisterns (and wasting diseases) to slow him down quite a bit by killing off bunches of his heros at a time. I also try to throw up as many artifacts as I can (Lampstand + HSR + any other artifat to shuffle stalls this deck..and your ANB deck pretty much indefinitely)
True, that version of the deck usually only plays well against that particular deck, ( really who actuallly plays a deck that has Priestly breastplate, UW ( in HPP) and idol of Dagon? ( I think?) in Temple of Dagon?...a deck that has to worry about three copies of Captured ark, but after that, I'd be golden.
I'm just saying that this deck is probably more beatable than you think ( at least the type II version) because not many people have played it that I know of. I am sure there are other stoppers that I cant think of that others would because they are more familiar with those combos.
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I just laugh every time a new T2 combo thread comes around and people act like the deck is unstoppable. Bottom line: combo decks are so much fun and they rule, but they can be countered. In multiple tries at nationals, a T2 combo deck has never gone undefeated over 6 games.
Kirk
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I hope players realize that this was not about deck strength. I would vote for errata on any card that could give a player a 45 minute turn, even if it could never do better than a timed-out loss.
The point was the lack-of-fun factor, and the sit-there-and-do-nothing factor. The fact that, at the end of that 45 minute turn, I'd have a deck with zero cards in it and likely couldn't win was just a secondary consideration.
I actually WANT a "deck-your-opponent" strategy to be viable at tournaments. Just not all in one 45-minute turn. :)
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then play red/egyptians mwahahha ;D ;D ;D
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I actually WANT a "deck-your-opponent" strategy to be viable at tournaments. Just not all in one 45-minute turn.
Good, I'll get right on that for you Bryon.
In fact, I've already got one ;)
Oh, and incidentally, this combo resulted from experimentation with an entirely different combo which is still doable, and may even see play later.
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Andy - I'm sorry that playing against this deck drove you to quit Redemption for the 37th time. I hope now that it's been errata'd away you'll be back soon.
Possibly best quote in Redemption history.
I would like to see less errata and more cards come out that stop combos, I think that is the right way to fix combos decks.
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A card to stop this combo would have to be a crazy powerful dominant because the opponent never got a turn. That isn't good for the game. While I agree overall that balance is better than erratas, balancing with new cards has two big disadvantages.
1. Are people going to have to dedicate like 7 card slots to include cards necessary to stop super OPd combos (kinda like we do with site access now)? It isn't feasible. I know this wouldn't be the case every time, but still, it is a valid point.
2. If you only fix problems with releasing new cards, then problems can only be solved once a year. That means, during Nats and the entire tournament season, these combos are not fixed. That isn't a timely fix.
Again, I do support the ANB errata, but for the exact reasons Bryon has stated.
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A card to stop this combo would have to be a crazy powerful dominant because the opponent never got a turn. That isn't good for the game. While I agree overall that balance is better than erratas, balancing with new cards has two big disadvantages.
This is going to sound really hypocritical with how supportive of my deck I've been, but there are 3 extremely reliable counters to the deck already, 1 of which is played in every deck I've ever seen. The deck is beatable, its greatest quality was its shere absurdity, the fact that it is so out in left field, even further than SitC was. Now that its out, its relatively easy to plan for and defeat, especially if you know I'm going to play it against you. (I think I could win maybe 2/5 games with it now (W/O ANB Errata)
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That is how many decks win. Sheer absurdity. If you throw your opponent off guard, you gain a huge advantage.
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Hey,
That is how many decks win. Sheer absurdity. If you throw your opponent off guard, you gain a huge advantage.
Unless of course you throw them off guard with Bravery of David.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
That is how many decks win. Sheer absurdity. If you throw your opponent off guard, you gain a huge advantage.
Unless of course you throw them off guard with Bravery of David.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
so true.
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So absurd decks are t2h wyn? Man, I wish I were able to go to tournaments now. But I guess I win Kenya nationals and Africa continentals by default?
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So absurd decks are t2h wyn? Man, I wish I were able to go to tournaments now. But I guess I win Kenya nationals and Africa continentals by default?
Rofl. Start a new playgroup down there! Then we can have two nationals at one time, and one world tournament! :P