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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Deck Concepts => Topic started by: Alex_Olijar on August 20, 2011, 08:31:09 PM

Title: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 20, 2011, 08:31:09 PM
Gomer
Uzzah
Amalekite's Slave
Nebuchadnezzar
King Belshazzar
Leviathan
King of Tyrus
Haman's Plot
Belshazzar's Banquet
Nebuchadnezzar's Pride


Add Nebushadan at your pleasure. King of Tyrus is iffy, as crazy as that is.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Chronic Apathy on August 20, 2011, 08:34:04 PM
I still support Armor Bearer, Goliath, and Outpost in standalones.

>_>
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Townsend on August 20, 2011, 08:35:21 PM
Solid. But Gomer and KoT are only meh now being that ALOT of the awesome battle winners are CBP.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on August 20, 2011, 08:36:21 PM
So now people are using Nebby two years after I was ranting about he was the best EC in the game :(.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 20, 2011, 08:37:50 PM
Solid. But Gomer and KoT are only meh now being that ALOT of the awesome battle winners are CBP.

Gomer can band to my opponent's defense (since no one will play Wall due to Goliath Threats). King of Tyrus is definately iffy, but if he's the first EC your draw, chances are he can get an early cheap block. He can also negate annoying protect from capture or banding heros.


So now people are using Nebby two years after I was ranting about he was the best EC in the game :(.

Only because you taught me  :-* And because Belshazzar is awesome.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Master KChief on August 20, 2011, 08:38:39 PM
also good to play plot on.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 20, 2011, 08:39:29 PM
also good to play plot on.

I figured that was pretty obvious, but yeah, I should have mentioned it.

Also, this defense assumes you are not using a Genesis offense.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on August 20, 2011, 08:40:29 PM
Only because you taught me  :-* And because Belshazzar is awesome.
Name on name recursion!
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 20, 2011, 08:41:15 PM
Iknowrite? sogood.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Master KChief on August 20, 2011, 08:41:34 PM
to the face.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 20, 2011, 08:42:30 PM
As sad as it is, this defense is probably better than most single color 7/7 or 8/8 defense splits. That's kinda pathetic.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Master KChief on August 20, 2011, 08:44:45 PM
i count 6+ blocks. not too shabby.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 20, 2011, 08:47:23 PM
i count 6+ blocks. not too shabby.

Especially since people use chumpy offense like Red now :-*
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: CJSports on August 20, 2011, 09:52:06 PM
Midianite Attack? Nice on Leviathan.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: SomeKittens on August 21, 2011, 06:19:40 PM
I still support Armor Bearer, Goliath, and Outpost in standalones.

>_>
Goliath can be a serious liability in lategame.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Professoralstad on August 22, 2011, 04:16:58 PM
I still support Armor Bearer, Goliath, and Outpost in standalones.

>_>
Goliath can be a serious liability in lategame.

If you get to lategame with a defense like that, you'll probably already have lost.

I probably wouldn't use Nebby's Pride, since it can be interrupted. Interruptable battle-winning EEs ftl.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Master KChief on August 22, 2011, 04:21:21 PM
its probably one of the best utility evil enhancements in the game. interrupt, battle winner, hard to protect from, good numbers, non with nebby, searchable with nebby.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 04:33:35 PM
its probably one of the best utility evil enhancements in the game. interrupt, battle winner, hard to protect from, good numbers, non with nebby, searchable with nebby.

MKC get it.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Professoralstad on August 22, 2011, 05:05:16 PM
its probably one of the best utility evil enhancements in the game. interrupt, battle winner, hard to protect from, good numbers, non with nebby, searchable with nebby.

I agree, I just have a hard time thinking of an EE as being worth the slot when most offenses either have ways to make their battle winners CBI/N, or they have ItBWinners themselves. I would definitely agree that it's probably the single best negatable EE in the game.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: BubbleBoy on August 22, 2011, 06:05:56 PM
If you're looking for the smallest and most efficient defense possible, this is probably about as good as it gets. Not a whole lot of fun though...
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Minister Polarius on August 22, 2011, 09:38:46 PM
The absolute best small defense is Dreaming Pharaoh, Cupbearer, Baker, Magicians, Warden, Horses, Swift Horses, Wonders Forgotten, Failed Objective.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Master KChief on August 22, 2011, 09:47:09 PM
are egyptian wise men considered to be magicians since they have the same verse as egyptian magicians?
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Smokey on August 22, 2011, 09:57:23 PM
The absolute best small defense is Dreaming Pharaoh, Cupbearer, Baker, Magicians, Warden, Horses, Swift Horses, Wonders Forgotten, Failed Objective.

You forgot invoking terror.

are egyptian wise men considered to be magicians since they have the same verse as egyptian magicians?

Nope, because it only specifies they are the Wisemen from the verse, not the Magicians.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:00:28 PM
i count 6+ blocks. not too shabby.

Especially since people use chumpy offense like Red now :-*
What are you going to do against the Centurion at Calvary, again? I think he negates every one of your plays.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:05:44 PM
i count 6+ blocks. not too shabby.

Especially since people use chumpy offense like Red now :-*
What are you going to do against the Centurion at Calvary, again? I think he negates every one of your plays.

Find someone playing with Cent at Calv and we'll talk.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:08:10 PM
i count 6+ blocks. not too shabby.

Especially since people use chumpy offense like Red now :-*
What are you going to do against the Centurion at Calvary, again? I think he negates every one of your plays.

Find someone playing with Cent at Calv and we'll talk.
Me, and I think any other smart player. What would you do?
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Master KChief on August 22, 2011, 11:09:27 PM
dreaming pharoah, cupbearer, and wonders forgotten cant be negated. but the rest fbtn/cent's/john/james son of alph/etc will walk through.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:11:32 PM
dreaming pharoah, cupbearer, and wonders forgotten cant be negated. but the rest fbtn/cent's/john/james son of alph/etc will walk through.

He's talking about the one in the OP, I imagine. Unfortunately, he has no idea what Nebby, his Pride, Banquet, or Belshazzar do.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:18:11 PM
dreaming pharoah, cupbearer, and wonders forgotten cant be negated. but the rest fbtn/cent's/john/james son of alph/etc will walk through.
I don't see any of those on the list...

EDIT: I just read Nebby, forgot he can't be negated, my bad. But Belshazzar still will.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: BubbleBoy on August 22, 2011, 11:21:51 PM
Don't you guys forget Covenant with Death. That'll breeze right through a lot of sucker blocks - and rescues.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:23:12 PM
Not to mention Christian Martyr and Writ exist for a reason.

Don't you guys forget Covenant with Death. That'll breeze right through a lot of sucker blocks - and rescues.

As long as you don't mind losing your chumps too.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Master KChief on August 22, 2011, 11:24:29 PM
nebby still works too. im starting to like him more and more.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:25:03 PM
nebby still works too. im starting to like him more and more.

Nebby is probably the best auto-block in the game.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:25:46 PM
Can this stand a chance against TGT?
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:26:31 PM
Can this stand a chance against TGT?

Yeah. It's offense wins faster.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:27:08 PM
Can this stand a chance against TGT?

Yeah. It's offense wins faster.
Ok, I guess I'll have to take your word on that.  :)
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:28:35 PM
Well, I mean, it's pretty obvious this is to be paired with a fast offense. This isn't a whole game defense. But, it is one of the best combinations of 10 cards to maximize blocking potential while minimizing dependence on drawing more than one card at once.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:30:04 PM
Well, I mean, it's pretty obvious this is to be paired with a fast offense. This isn't a whole game defense. But, it is one of the best combinations of 10 cards to maximize blocking potential while minimizing dependence on drawing more than one card at once.
I'd agree with that. But I feel like it could struggle against most of the new cards. Asahel and the Centurions for red, Covenant with Death, John for Disciples (and Thaddeus)... I just feel like this meta is moving away from character abilities.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: BubbleBoy on August 22, 2011, 11:30:49 PM
Don't you guys forget Covenant with Death. That'll breeze right through a lot of sucker blocks - and rescues.

As long as you don't mind losing your chumps too.
This card works awesome in my Judges/Canaanites deck. Almost all the Canaanites are CBP, and the Judges angels are CBN. Not to mention that one of the Judges angels makes all good Judges cards CBN, and that two of my judges either virtually or literally have no special abilities. Embrace the devastation.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:32:53 PM
I'd agree with that. But I feel like it could struggle against most of the new cards. Asahel and the Centurions for red, Covenant with Death, John for Disciples (and Thaddeus)... I just feel like this meta is moving away from character abilities.

It's not. Character abilities are still the most efficient ways to win battles. There's no reason to shift away from them because cards counter them. Speed is still going strong because it's better than other stuff. So will Character abilities.

Don't you guys forget Covenant with Death. That'll breeze right through a lot of sucker blocks - and rescues.

As long as you don't mind losing your chumps too.
This card works awesome in my Judges/Canaanites deck. Almost all the Canaanites are CBP, and the Judges angels are CBN. Not to mention that one of the Judges angels makes all good Judges cards CBN, and that two of my judges either virtually or literally have no special abilities. Embrace the devastation.

Call me dumb, but I just don't see that as winning combination on a whole meta scale. Maybe I am wrong, we'll see.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:36:23 PM
I'd agree with that. But I feel like it could struggle against most of the new cards. Asahel and the Centurions for red, Covenant with Death, John for Disciples (and Thaddeus)... I just feel like this meta is moving away from character abilities.

It's not. Character abilities are still the most efficient ways to win battles. There's no reason to shift away from them because cards counter them. Speed is still going strong because it's better than other stuff. So will Character abilities.
Define speed. Because I think the classic speed deck definitely is losing power. It hasn't won nationals in a long time, and now it isn't even winning multiplayer as often (thanks to Mayhem and Grapes of Wrath). So I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. =)

But you could be right that negating character abilities will not be as popular as I think it will be. It's what my deck will be though, so I'm probably overestimating how many people will actually use it.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:39:19 PM
Disciples are good because they fast.
TGT is good because it is fast.
Red/Purple is good because it is fast.
etc
etc


While classic speed might not be the thing, every good deck is fast. And there are certainly enough counters to drawing.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 22, 2011, 11:43:53 PM
But Disciples are definitely not the fastest. I think they are good because they have thaddeus and lots of interrupt and negates and battle winners. Speed helps, but I don't think that is why they are good.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:45:53 PM
But Disciples are definitely not the fastest. I think they are good because they have thaddeus and lots of interrupt and negates and battle winners. Speed helps, but I don't think that is why they are good.

That's just not true. Thaddeus is probably the 4th maybe even 5th best Disciple in T1. Disciples are good because they have access to the best enhancement in the game and numerous ways to draw. They have the best two hero combo in the game. They have a D3 hero. They have a enhancement CBN hero.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Jmbeers on August 22, 2011, 11:46:55 PM
I realize that I'm completely outnumbered by Hero Members but I still can't find the reason why everyone LOVES Goliath and why is he constantly considered an auto block?

His ability isn't a may, simply send out the hero you don't plan on using...
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 22, 2011, 11:47:36 PM
I realize that I'm completely outnumbered by Hero Members but I still can't find the reason why everyone LOVES Goliath and why is he constantly considered an outo block?

His ability isn't a may, simply send out the hero you don't plan on using...

And then I can use a different EC because you just used a crappy hero.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Jmbeers on August 22, 2011, 11:51:54 PM
Most people have multiple good Heros,

Do you really put "crappy" Heros in your deck?
If you do I see why Goliath is tuff for you.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: BubbleBoy on August 22, 2011, 11:54:56 PM
Don't you guys forget Covenant with Death. That'll breeze right through a lot of sucker blocks - and rescues.

As long as you don't mind losing your chumps too.
This card works awesome in my Judges/Canaanites deck. Almost all the Canaanites are CBP, and the Judges angels are CBN. Not to mention that one of the Judges angels makes all good Judges cards CBN, and that two of my judges either virtually or literally have no special abilities. Embrace the devastation.

Call me dumb, but I just don't see that as winning combination on a whole meta scale. Maybe I am wrong, we'll see.
You are probably right, but winning isn't my reason for playing. I play to have fun, and chump block defenses are not fun.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 23, 2011, 12:02:06 AM
I won't disagree with you, I'm just commenting for the perspective of the meta. The meta cares about what is good, not what is fun.

Most people have multiple good Heros,

Do you really put "crappy" Heros in your deck?
If you do I see why Goliath is tuff for you.

Most people have an obvious best hero. If you are any good, you can realize which hero this is. If they attack with this hero, you have the option of using Goliath. If they don't, you have the option of not using Goliath. Either way, it gives you come control over which hero RAs.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Jmbeers on August 23, 2011, 12:08:27 AM
I've just played against Goliath and never gone oh snap now what?

He's good yea. But this, "I have him in my deck now be afraid" mentality just dosen't add up for me.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 24, 2011, 10:18:23 AM
He hurts a hero lite deck thats for sure.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: 0/2 Buckler on August 24, 2011, 10:20:33 AM
Unless that herolite is a trolling Watchful Servant deck, then it doesn't matter...
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: SomeKittens on August 24, 2011, 09:35:57 PM
Early game, he's brilliant if your opponent only draws one hero.  (Or more than one, but enhancements for only one)
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: lightningninja on August 24, 2011, 09:49:15 PM
Also great for stopping bands. I can't even count all the times I've had Christian Martyr, Unholy Write or Go into Captivity and can't use it because they are banding more than one guy and I can't get rid of them.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: SomeKittens on August 24, 2011, 11:16:54 PM
12FG and Goliath = FBTNB Trolololo.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Jmbeers on August 25, 2011, 12:05:06 AM
I do like the card. If I used a Philistine deck you better believe I'd be trying to get him. He's good, no doubt.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: SomeKittens on August 25, 2011, 11:38:01 AM
Once converted, he stomps Phars like a boss.
Title: Re: Standalone defense - is there anything better than this?
Post by: Neil Da BOMB J on August 25, 2011, 12:13:48 PM
I've just played against Goliath and never gone oh snap now what?

He's good yea. But this, "I have him in my deck now be afraid" mentality just dosen't add up for me.

What he's good for is limiting options, for example you have the woman's L.S., you kick there woman out of battle.  You got sites, you kick there site access Hero out of battle.   
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