Author Topic: Going to the Doctor: A six month checkup on the Redemption Meta (Read 10889 times)

stefferweffer · « **Reply #25 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:56:11 AM »

I'm torn on this issue. On the one hand, I think Alex is absolutely correct that TGT and Speed are alive and well and still a problem, despite several sets coming out since this was discovered. What I don't understand is why the new sets would sometimes add cards to strengthen speed or TGT even more, and especially make it so that more brigades can now play speed. If speed was the problem, how does spreading it out across multiple brigades help?

But I'm torn because on the other side, there have been SEVERAL counters created for TGT and for speed. And yet even this thread illustrates that people are not using the counters that they have been given. After TXP came out I used a defense that included BOTH Image of Jealousy and Destructive Sin - two territory class enhancements that could at least negate the pre-block ignore part. There were more counters created than just these, even in the last set, but those two cards alone made things more manageable, in my opinion. Speed received several counters as well (and some even existed before it was a problem). But if no one uses these cards, why not? Are they not good enough counters?

It seems to me that if they adopt the new dominants rules/cap, AND the inability to rescue your own lost souls, that speed will finally cease being so powerful. I always said the real problem was too many dominants anyway.

Red Wing · « **Reply #26 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:11:56 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on February 15, 2012, 11:43:42 AM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 10:59:00 AM
Keep in mind that when people are referring to TGT, they are not referring to Gardensciples...

Ok, I was thinking Gardendiciples myself, I apologize for not being clearer...

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 10:59:00 AM
Can you name some CBN evil battle winners that stop a six or seven character FBTN banding chain?

Gib Trick, Hunger + Plagued w/diseases, wrath... I'm noticing a pattern, all these enhancements are available in black...

Hunger & Wrath will not work without the CBP LS or A-Pole out. Gib Trick probably won't work against a six or seven character FBTN chain.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:23:21 PM »

But again, the counters to FBTN are out there. It's just that hardly anyone uses them. 12FG, COM, HOH, Household Idols, Asherah Pole, CBP Lost Soul, etc. Unfortunately there's little way to make a reasonably sized deck that counters all the "metas" at once and have room left, and move quickly enough, to be competitive.

soul seeker · « **Reply #28 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:50:58 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 12:23:21 PM

Unfortunately there's little way to make a reasonably sized deck that counters all the "metas" at once and have room left, and move quickly enough, to be competitive.

It saddens me that people believe this. I have let this thread and others go on without chiming in (for fear of being perceived as arrogant). I believe that the code has been cracked and it is possible to do it. The following are the reasons why:
1) I have beaten all the top decks in this thread multiple times.
2) My deck has run as fast as other decks mentioned in this thread.
3) I have played RooT and got 4th (not 3rd by differential) with my deck playing a variety of different top notch decks, but those losses would be understandable if people SAW the game.
a) 1st loss: my deck drew out very poorly, and Prof U turtled against me (which is not possible in live tourneys). A better draw would have seen the game turn a bit in my favor. That same month, I survived two other turtles.
b) 2nd loss: I about had this game won except that Pol had 1 extra (and very rare) character in his deck that is not in other decks of that same meta (I don't give other's decks away, but just trust me...the hero that won him the game is not in other decks of that type.)

My main deck is very capable, but it has one and a half weakness.
Weakness 1: It can draw poorly on occassion...most of the time I overcome it...in my game with Prof U...I didn't.
Weakness 1/2: It will NOT give someone a huge lost soul differential. However, as long as it wins, it doesn't matter.

All that to say this...there are multiple anti-meta possibilities...people need to use their creativity to find them the same way "speed" players have used their creativity to find the combos to create the fastest deck.

Then again, what do I know...I'm just a noob.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #29 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:53:15 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 12:23:21 PM

But again, the counters to FBTN are out there. It's just that hardly anyone uses them. 12FG, COM, HOH, Household Idols, Asherah Pole, CBP Lost Soul, etc. Unfortunately there's little way to make a reasonably sized deck that counters all the "metas" at once and have room left, and move quickly enough, to be competitive.

The main problem is that Sam is so fast that, unless an anti-meta deck draws one (usually two or three would be required) of their anti-meta cards, Sam gains enough counters to the anti-meta cards that it can't be stopped. All artifacts can be taken out with Foreign Sword, DoN, or Captured Ark, the CBP LS is countered by Wanderer, Burial, SoG/NJ, and Foreign Sword, 12FG isn't strong enough to stop Sam more than once (due to reasons I listed before). Sam moves so fast that outside a good draw (not even an average one), anti-meta cannot stop Sam long enough to get the edge necessary to win.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:06:25 PM »

In other words, go hard or go home.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #31 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:13:51 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 11:04:34 AM

Didn't Westy play Disciples in six or seven of his games?

No. I played it three games. Afterward, I played it in several fun games, which lead me to pronounce it's 6-0 record.

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on February 15, 2012, 11:06:52 AM

Yeah, but on the same hand, 100% of his losses came from playing a disciples deck.

Also not true. My loss was to RDT, and I was playing my Troll deck. Additionally, my two ties (both of which could have been wins...grr...) were with my troll deck, which essentially gave me another loss.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #32 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:22:21 PM »

TGT's still good. Sure, you have to give up a LS, but then your offense becomes a LOT more powerful. Chris, what defenses have you been seeing other than standalone?

lp670sv · « **Reply #33 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:23:16 PM »

My Canaanites Defense does not count as it has yet to win a game

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:25:44 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 15, 2012, 01:22:21 PM

TGT's still good. Sure, you have to give up a LS, but then your offense becomes a LOT more powerful. Chris, what defenses have you been seeing other than standalone?

A lot of pale green, mostly Assyrians and Magicians; Gates of Samaria decks, Herods (which make a surprisingly effective anti-meta), black (Canaanites and/or Philistines), and of course, Genyptians. I see a lot more pale green than I see anything else, with standalone being second.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #35 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:40:58 PM »

Hmm. I knew that they were good in T2, didn't think it would bleed over to T1 given the different strategies involved. I might try to experiment with them.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #36 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:51:18 PM »

One of the decks Chris played that used a defense he mentions was mine last weekend. Magicians mostly, with a couple of standalone demons. However, it was a gimmick deck (Job), so it probably shouldn't count.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #37 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:52:00 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 15, 2012, 01:40:58 PM

Hmm. I knew that they were good in T2, didn't think it would bleed over to T1 given the different strategies involved. I might try to experiment with them.

I never claimed they were good, only that I played them.

Red · « **Reply #38 on:** February 15, 2012, 02:45:13 PM »

Three things.

One: Foreign sword is garbage.

Two:anti-meta is very possible.

Three: Palegreen needs not to be bashed.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #39 on:** February 15, 2012, 02:52:31 PM »

Here's my questions for 50-52 card "speed" players: IF the dominant cap changes to = the number of lost souls in your deck, will you ...

1) Increase the size of your deck so that you can include more dominants?
2) Use mostly evil dominants to assist your defense?
3) Abandon evil dominants completely (except maybe DON), and go with something like SOG, AOTL, HT, GOW, GOYS, NJ and DON?
4) Completely give up on speed and go with a more balanced approach?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #40 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:04:02 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 02:52:31 PM

Here's my questions for 50-52 card "speed" players: IF the dominant cap changes to = the number of lost souls in your deck, will you ...

1) Increase the size of your deck so that you can include more dominants?
2) Use mostly evil dominants to assist your defense?
3) Abandon evil dominants completely (except maybe DON), and go with something like SOG, AOTL, HT, GOW, GOYS, NJ and DON?
4) Completely give up on speed and go with a more balanced approach?

Most of the time, my seven card dominant set would be Son of God, New Jerusalem, Angel of the Lord, Christian Martyr, Mayhem, Grapes of Wrath, and Harvest Time. The dom cap certainly wouldn't make me give up on speed, though I would make sure one or two of the now-open card slots would go towards defense.

Quote from: Red on February 15, 2012, 02:45:13 PM

One: Foreign sword is garbage.

Do you want to back that up? Keeping in mind my own Sam deck is something like 20-2 (rough estimate), Foreign Sword has probably helped me in 15 or 16 of those games.

Red Wing · « **Reply #41 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:14:10 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 02:52:31 PM

Here's my questions for 50-52 card "speed" players: IF the dominant cap changes to = the number of lost souls in your deck, will you ...

1) Increase the size of your deck so that you can include more dominants? No
2) Use mostly evil dominants to assist your defense? No
3) Abandon evil dominants completely (except maybe DON), and go with something like SOG, AOTL, HT, GOW, GOYS, NJ and DON? No
4) Completely give up on speed and go with a more balanced approach? No

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:21:37 PM »

Foreign Sword is the awesome!

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #43 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:28:55 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 15, 2012, 03:21:37 PM

Foreing Sword is the Bomb.

I agree. Let's get a list going of all the things Foreign Sword does, shall we?

Completely stops self-capture defenses.
Stops placed "draw 2 and play next" enhancements by putting the character (or the enhancement, if character is protected) on top of deck.
Stops Writ
Stops Charms
Puts a site on top of deck if site access is needed
Negates a Lost Soul if access is otherwise unavailable
Puts an Uzzah or Gomer (or any other EC) on top of deck if they're in play
In general stalls your opponent; keep in mind that if you use Foreign Sword three times in one game, that's one draw phase

Now, keep in mind that Foreign Sword is recurrable via Soldier's Prayer, and the negate still works even when not played off of a Philistine or Canaanite, and you have a potent force that should probably work its way into any deck with more than two red WC heroes.

Red · « **Reply #44 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:49:37 PM »

I just feel I could put in a better card when I use foreign sword. It slows you down and usaly doesn't directly win a battle.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #45 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:53:48 PM »

It doesn't always win a battle but it often gives access.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #46 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:56:08 PM »

It can take away your opponent's ability to win a battle, which is almost the same thing.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #47 on:** February 15, 2012, 04:17:47 PM »

To bad it doesn't stop Asherah Pole anymore

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #48 on:** February 15, 2012, 07:27:12 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 15, 2012, 04:17:47 PM

To bad it doesn't stop Asherah Pole anymore

I hadn't considered that; that's a good point.

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Author Topic: Going to the Doctor: A six month checkup on the Redemption Meta (Read 10889 times)

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