Author Topic: Alternate Win Condition (Read 3630 times)

kariusvega · « **on:** January 08, 2016, 02:07:54 PM »

Hey! I love Redemption and was just thinking about a little MTG I know of where the win condition is to deck out your opponent.

What if there was an alternate way to rescue lost souls/win the game in Redemption?

Say for example..

You Are the Christ

A dominant that can't be played with Son of God which is placed in territory, but if you meet a certain criteria (for example, having out the Holy Spirit, a NT site, a full church or so many fruits of the spirit/armor of God, you can't rescue with a hero but you the player can begin rescuing a lost soul per turn. It would include a number of different conditions to begin doing so, but I think it would be cool if there was a way outside of rescuing and Son of God to win the game by getting to 5 lost souls. Just a thought.. that's why this post is in deck concepts and not card design. I don't really have a single card which would allow this to happen because it would take a few to make it work and not be op. It would definitely be a late game win condition.

Anyway, would dig your thoughts on alternate win conditions for Redemption outside of this one! I love that taunt is playable now and am really anticipating playing it more since allowing an Evil Character to begin a battle changes the dynamic of the game, which I think is really cool!

Happy New Year everyone! Blessings

kram1138 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2016, 02:26:05 PM »

I think it would be cool, but I don't think it would work well competitively. The cards that exist in the game now are all designed around the existing win condition, so some of the existing fundamental parts of a deck could become obsolete. In your example, the opponents defence would essentially be useless, if you are using that strategy. So if any were considered, I would think they would have to be careful to make it close enough to the current win condition that you don't have sacrifice the usability of card types or strategies.

kariusvega · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2016, 03:33:30 PM »

for sure and that's kind of the point. thinking about the effectiveness of defensive heavy decks, draw/search counters, and late game win conditions currently existing my one example could be complimentary but i'd like to really explore the potentials of many alternatives more so than my own

i think the topic is interesting enough for discussion and wonder where the elders stand on it. rescuing lost souls will always be the objective, i would really like to see what other people think about alternate means of rescuing outside of battles and Son of God. i think i remember one person posting something about a Rapture card that could rescue lost souls/be a winning condition. not sure how much outside of this or this topic exactly has been discussed.

my one example is kind of trying to exemplify the amount that we as people play a role now in rescuing lost souls by being that example of a Christlike person

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2016, 08:26:57 PM »

There have been discussions here on the forum in the past about alternate win conditions. I think I remember one on having a character holding all of the parts of the armor of God. If you search the forum you can find some interesting discussions on these sorts of ideas.

The elders position historically has been against adding such things (thus we don't have them yet). But I don't think that the whole idea is outside the realm of possibility.

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2016, 10:02:39 PM »

Eye On It was supposed to be a really cool alternate win condition card but it was murdered to the point of pretty much unplayable.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2016, 03:42:49 AM »

I don't know if you would consider this an alternate win condition or not, but it may be possible to create a deck with the sole goal of being so annoying that you can get your opponent to ragequit*.

*ragequit -- To stop playing a game out of an anger towards an event that transpired within the game.

kram1138 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2016, 10:06:07 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 10, 2016, 03:42:49 AM

It may be possible to create a ~~deck~~ site lock deck with the sole goal of being so annoying that you can get your opponent to ragequit*.

Josh · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2016, 11:35:46 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 08, 2016, 10:02:39 PM

Eye On It was supposed to be a really cool alternate win condition card but it was murdered to the point of pretty much unplayable.

I would like to hear more about the backstory of this card. Perhaps you could do a writeup like you did for Joseph and AUTO/AWSN?

Gabe · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2016, 02:32:23 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on January 14, 2016, 11:35:46 AM

Quote from: Gabe on January 08, 2016, 10:02:39 PM
Eye On It was supposed to be a really cool alternate win condition card but it was murdered to the point of pretty much unplayable.

I would like to hear more about the backstory of this card. Perhaps you could do a writeup like you did for Joseph and AUTO/AWSN?

Sounds like a fun idea! I have my weekly content planned a few weeks out for LoR but I'll consider doing that in the future.

Lampy 2.0 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2016, 03:14:41 PM »

I would love it if decking out lost you the game in Redemption. It'd make speed deck players more cautious when drawing cards and it would make mill decks amazing. (I enjoy mill decks.

)

kariusvega · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2016, 06:59:39 PM »

Quote from: Lampy 2.0 on January 14, 2016, 03:14:41 PM

I would love it if decking out lost you the game in Redemption. It'd make speed deck players more cautious when drawing cards and it would make mill decks amazing. (I enjoy mill decks. )

i know that people will hate this, but i honestly feel this would give redemption such an edge.. since speed has become a dominant play factor.. it really does make recursion that much more important and also adds huge strength to cards like ashtaroth worship and the new philetus. also gives abom a new edge and deck discard strats

i would like to experiment with this concept. decking out = lose condition

it also makes gates of hell an eternal loss if you dc your entire deck.. that is a huge one.

Gabe · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2016, 08:42:27 PM »

I doubt Redemption will ever make decking out on it's own a win condition, however I could see the potential of making cards that introduce a win condition, or some very strong abilities, if the opponent has decked out.

kram1138 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2016, 12:04:10 AM »

Watchful servant used to be...

jbeers285 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2016, 09:03:19 AM »

Speed is not the issue in redemption anymore. The truth is defense has caught and passed offense. Recursion, speed and power are all necessary pieces in top decks. Ways to instead and extend battles also seem to be key elements. Decking out is a huge penalty in the game on its own because you quickly run out of playable resources.

. . . Used to be? Lol still super good how many times can they block from hand and negate or deal with watchful? If they are decked then not very many. Watchful just needs a couple pieces to ensure he runs at the end.

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** January 22, 2016, 11:22:34 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on January 14, 2016, 11:35:46 AM

Quote from: Gabe on January 08, 2016, 10:02:39 PM
Eye On It was supposed to be a really cool alternate win condition card but it was murdered to the point of pretty much unplayable.

I would like to hear more about the backstory of this card. Perhaps you could do a writeup like you did for Joseph and AUTO/AWSN?

Thanks for the idea. You'll find it on Land of Redemption today!

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2016, 05:07:34 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on January 15, 2016, 09:03:19 AM

Speed is not the issue in redemption anymore.

Speed will always be an issue in redemption barring rule changes. Perhaps not an overall issue as you maybe be suggesting but on a game to game basis it really is. Counters, among other factors, make it less of an issue. Also the mere presence of counters gives incentives for players to move away from speed. But if counters are not used or not drawn, speed yields the same problems to the game that it always has.

Quote from: jbeers285 on January 15, 2016, 09:03:19 AM

The truth is defense has caught and passed offense.

Speed acts as more of an indirect boost of good over evil, but also evil over good. It helps both. So I don't see how its absence is helpful evidence that evil has caught up to and passed good. Moreover, there are no major tournaments that have taken place since the last set so it can not be used as much evidence that good has passed evil. Last nationals probably gives the best evidence for this situation. So if you feel like top cut was indicative of evil passing good that's fair. But what I heard is that a Turtle deck cleaned up, which doesn't have a lot to do with the state of the game in non-turtle match ups.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2016, 05:53:41 PM »

John's deck is by no means a turtle. That deck moves rather quickly. have you played with or against it? Defensive heavy truly is the best deck type right now it just requires elite building and piloting. Defensive power has passed offensive power excluding end game ignore with hero recursion. The games aren't fun to play with or against those decks but they are the best decks in the game. Defense is way ahead of offense.

@ TheHobbit Speed is not anything anymore. Go build a speed deck with the traditional KoT, Gomer, Plot 5 card defense and speed to your next tournament. Being in MN it won't place despite your piloting abilities as a good player.

Do you need some speed to compete absolutely but raw speed decks that race to 5 are a thing of distant past. Defenses are to good you need more power.

kariusvega · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2016, 07:23:10 PM »

another idea here is possibly a potentially evil character-less defense that only uses sites. on top of that these sites would just be really nice in general with their own unique purposes... i built a deck once that was just angels and sites and it was a lot of fun. high cost/benefit but with it's vulnerabilities

1. a site that negates sites

2. a site that protects lost souls not in sites from rescue by humans

3. a site that can capture a hero if you have no evil characters in your territory while your opponent's hero is in battle

4. a site that can be played from hand during a rescue to effectively lock out a hero without access

5. a site that can rescue one specific lost soul (for example a genesis lot's daughter lost soul and it could be a reprint of sodom) if it's already in play when the site is played or it could be ends of the earth that can only rescue lost soul in play if the holy spirit is in play

6. a site that if you have 6 sites already in play can rescue a lost soul regardless of protection, cbn so it can be played with the one that negates sites - and is basically a dead card unless you have kept all of your sites together and in play by the time you even get them into play

7. a site that protects decks from drawing abilities

this is kind of an alternate win condition but like Gabe mentioned in the land of redemption article, really the intention is alternate rescue conditions that may or may not involve battle phase and still allow for player interaction during it and within other phases

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2016, 07:54:50 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on January 22, 2016, 05:53:41 PM

John's deck is by no means a turtle. That deck moves rather quickly. have you played with or against it? Defensive heavy truly is the best deck type right now it just requires elite building and piloting. Defensive power has passed offensive power excluding end game ignore with hero recursion. The games aren't fun to play with or against those decks but they are the best decks in the game. Defense is way ahead of offense.

Maybe all turtles are defensive heavy but not all defense heavy decks are turtles. I think the two terms are close enough to be substituted for each other. I don't know... I could just have easily said defensive heavy and should have for clarity. I haven't played against it but I read his list after he won.

Quote from: jbeers285 on January 22, 2016, 05:53:41 PM

Speed is not anything anymore. Go build a speed deck with the traditional KoT, Gomer, Plot 5 card defense and speed to your next tournament. Being in MN it won't place despite your piloting abilities as a good player.

I agree. There are plenty of efficient ways to counter drawing that you can't relay on a speed deck anymore. When you said "speed is not an issue anymore", I didn't think you only meant that speed decks aren't an issue anymore. If that's what you were getting at than there's no disagreement. Otherwise you can't generalize and say that speed is not an issue because speed decks are not an issue; drawing is an issue and any decent offensive heavy decks uses some element of drawing to get to its power cards like you say.

Quote from: Gabe on January 14, 2016, 08:42:27 PM

I doubt Redemption will ever make decking out on it's own a win condition, however I could see the potential of making cards that introduce a win condition, or some very strong abilities, if the opponent has decked out.

Yeah that's probably better, because then you can print cards which might be difficult to use with both the Gold brigades and forced draw. I think the rule would be perfect if there was no forced draw, no Samaritan water Jar, and a stricter deck cap.

I have played two games that have a deck out rule. In Lord of the Rings you lose when you try to draw cards and cannot (or maybe its when you deck out can't remember) but you have to build a balanced deck, deck minimums are higher than Redemption, drawing through game rules is minimal, and your opponent can out run you to Mordor even if you stall. I haven't played much magic but deck minimums are higher and you draw one card per turns vs 3. Both had these rules from the beginning and so their design teams can make cards accordingly. All this is to say, as the play-testers understand, other ccgs are built for a deck out rule; Redemption is not.

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Author Topic: Alternate Win Condition (Read 3630 times)

kariusvega

kariusvega

kariusvega

TheHobbit13

kariusvega

TheHobbit13