Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Defensive heavy beats speed more often than not (or at least, last year). Unfortunately, it does time out against good players, regardless of how fast you play, since they know they can take all the time in the world. Additionally, it's going to get draw screwed at some point, and it's really, really hard to play. I made two mistakes which potentially would have changed nationals this year.

This year has so much more (and it's all CBN now), so turtle doesn't have any viability at all.

People are too focused on the battle. The key to a turtle deck is extending the battle. At best, a speed deck has 6 battle winners, and that's being pretty generous. Using Unknown Nation, Magic Charms, Unholy Writ, Christian Martyr, Gates of Hell, etc. can completely nullify all of those. Also, banding (with back up enhancements, none of this Gomer/KoT stuff) can nullify things like Samuel's Edict. In addition, sneaky tactics are required. You can't expect to get initiative to play something, and you better not be relying on them to not have an interrupt. You have to focus on picking off certain heroes. Are they playing two brigades? Kill the one they've used the least, they'll run out of options. It becomes less of a battle by battle game, and more of a chess match. Lose this battle, but destroy your opponent's territory with Great Image...it'll probably pay off in the long run.

I look forward to refining my turtle and playing it in Ironman. I definitely think it's still viable.

I think the reason defense-heavy can no longer reliably stop speed is speed is no longer a one-off mashup. It used to be if you could weather AoCP, Zeal, AotL, Provisions, and Holy Unto the Lord (or something like that), Speed decks would run out of steam. Now, Genesis can recur its whole offense easily, not to mention having 5 CBN battle-winning plays without Asher. Samuel decks have so many win conditions it's literally impossible to plug all the holes without a massive defense (which loses without a huge luck imbalance). Isaiah decks don't even rely on battle-winners. Disciples not only don't rely on battle-winners, but often don't need them at all. Defenses are no longer able to stop speed by surviving for 5 or so turns.

So speed has essentially become an offensive turtle?

You can only control how you build your deck and how you play. So the goal in deck building is to build a deck that you feel confident can win no matter what deck it goes up against or what style of play your opponent uses.

Aka Type 2 combo decks. I have yet to see type 1 decks be able to terrorize opponents like a good Type 2 combo deck.

Kirk

Ok, i was wondering. If having a more enhancements is such a bad idea, why do the starter decks do it?

The starter decks are not built to be good. They are built as a "sample" of the game.

In addition to what's already been said, starter decks are a teaching tool for new players to learn the game. A common "mistake" I see new players make is to "waste" enhancements. They sometimes use them in a battle when they won't help the Hero stay alive or win a Lost Soul. In Redemption, like in real life, good wins in the end. One reason the starters are enhancement heavy is to ensure players have enough enhancements to win 5 Lost Souls, even they are not all played optimally.

Another way to build a good deck is to have a strong offense with plenty of options, and your defense should only stall your opponent with cards that end the battle and protect lost souls-huzzah,gibeonite trickery and all other cards like these. Also, don't waste yourself defense and offense on cards that don't negate, end the battle(defense), or kill your opponent