Author Topic: Set Rotation food for thought (Read 19175 times)

SEB · « **on:** May 07, 2018, 08:40:18 AM »

I know there has been some discussion on set rotations. Here is some food for thought:

I would really to see Redemption have two card "pools." We would call one "Eternal" and the other "Temporal."

Eternal: Any card that has/will be printed, with an "Eternal Banned List" in place (of course errata text apply).
Temporal: Legal cards are those printed from the last four expansions and the most recent starter decks, with a "Temporal Banned List" in place (of course errata text apply).

Then when tournament hosts advertise tournaments, they can simply say that this is an Eternal Tournament or Temporal.

Of if that is too much to manage, then just add a new type: Type 3. Type 3 is the rotation format.

I would STRONGLY encourage the elders not to drop T1 & T2 as they currently are, as players' expectation are to use every card, BUT with so many sets, it is a necessary action to make a rotation format. This allows new players entrance to a game that has been printed for so many years. A rotation format will be a great tool to help new players get interested in the game.

Red · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2018, 09:39:17 AM »

I like this idea, if Eternal is equally supported and tested for. I think Temporal might need to be a set or two bigger however, to support variety in deck building.

SEB · « **Reply #2 on:** May 07, 2018, 01:00:56 PM »

Quote from: Red on May 07, 2018, 09:39:17 AM

I like this idea, if Eternal is equally supported and tested for. I think Temporal might need to be a set or two bigger however, to support variety in deck building.

Ya, would definitely need to test play some, but past experience shows that the format that is rotating should be fairly small (about 500-1000 cards in the pool). So, 4 sets may be too small for sure! I can see 5 being a good number.

If you wanted you could also rotate an old expansion too. This could help spice up tournament meta:

2018 Temporal Season = Last Fall of Man; Revelation of John; Cloud of Witness; & Persecuted Church, latest starter decks, and the "Women" expansion.
2019 Temporal Season = New Set; Last Fall of Man; Revelation of John; & Cloud of Witness; latest starter decks, and the "Warriors" expansion.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 07, 2018, 01:42:23 PM »

I will point out that while it could be adjusted, if a set rotation happens in Redemption it would (probably) line up with the card facings (at first).

So the "temporal" cards would be I/J, RoA tin #26, EC, PC, CoW, RoJ, FoM, Legacy Rares & promos released during that time period.

So the "eternal" cards would obviously include: Limited/Unlimited, Prophets, Women, Warriors, Apostles, Patriarchs, Kings, Angel Wars, Priests, Faith of our Fathers, Rock of Ages, TxP, Disciples, older starter decks (A/B, C/D, E/F, G/H) & promos printed pre I/J.

I will say with the introduction to Legacy Rares, there could easily be more of those released and both of these sets would have a good card count to go with. The temporal would be very skewed towards clay and silver (maybe white as well), but the Legacy Rares would be the fix for that.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #4 on:** May 07, 2018, 01:47:00 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on May 07, 2018, 01:42:23 PM

I will point out that while it could be adjusted, if a set rotation happens in Redemption it would (probably) line up with the card facings (at first).

So the "temporal" cards would be I/J, RoA tin #26, EC, PC, CoW, RoJ, FoM, Legacy Rares & promos released during that time period.

So the "eternal" cards would obviously include: Limited/Unlimited, Prophets, Women, Warriors, Apostles, Patriarchs, Kings, Angel Wars, Priests, Faith of our Fathers, Rock of Ages, TxP, Disciples, older starter decks (A/B, C/D, E/F, G/H) & promos printed pre I/J.

I will say with the introduction to Legacy Rares, there could easily be more of those released and both of these sets would have a good card count to go with. The temporal would be very skewed towards clay and silver (maybe white as well), but the Legacy Rares would be the fix for that.

I would hope LRs don't count as reprints as far as format legality is concerned.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 07, 2018, 01:55:30 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 01:47:00 PM

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on May 07, 2018, 01:42:23 PM
I will point out that while it could be adjusted, if a set rotation happens in Redemption it would (probably) line up with the card facings (at first).

So the "temporal" cards would be I/J, RoA tin #26, EC, PC, CoW, RoJ, FoM, Legacy Rares & promos released during that time period.

So the "eternal" cards would obviously include: Limited/Unlimited, Prophets, Women, Warriors, Apostles, Patriarchs, Kings, Angel Wars, Priests, Faith of our Fathers, Rock of Ages, TxP, Disciples, older starter decks (A/B, C/D, E/F, G/H) & promos printed pre I/J.

I will say with the introduction to Legacy Rares, there could easily be more of those released and both of these sets would have a good card count to go with. The temporal would be very skewed towards clay and silver (maybe white as well), but the Legacy Rares would be the fix for that.

I would hope LRs don't count as reprints as far as format legality is concerned.

So you hope they are just cards for OCD collectors to get? If they aren't going to be considered cards that count towards a "new facing" set rotation, what is the point of them?

SEB · « **Reply #6 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:01:10 PM »

To be clear... the LR discussion is a matter of "If a legacy rare (reprint) is in a new set, would it be in the rotation set?"

If i understand this correctly, make it easy and clear. If the card is printed in that set (and it's not on the Temporal Band list) it is Temporal legal.

Also, im sure there could be a power imbalance at first between brigades, but that's because the game has never cared about what cards see each other in a temporal view (eternal vis-a-vis temporal formats). As the game progress, it would give the designers more "creative-space" to explore and it would balance itself out over time. I think it would be fun, and an exciting way to bring new people to the game

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #7 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:05:03 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on May 07, 2018, 01:55:30 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Crashfach2002 on May 07, 2018, 01:42:23 PM
I will point out that while it could be adjusted, if a set rotation happens in Redemption it would (probably) line up with the card facings (at first).

So the "temporal" cards would be I/J, RoA tin #26, EC, PC, CoW, RoJ, FoM, Legacy Rares & promos released during that time period.

So the "eternal" cards would obviously include: Limited/Unlimited, Prophets, Women, Warriors, Apostles, Patriarchs, Kings, Angel Wars, Priests, Faith of our Fathers, Rock of Ages, TxP, Disciples, older starter decks (A/B, C/D, E/F, G/H) & promos printed pre I/J.

I will say with the introduction to Legacy Rares, there could easily be more of those released and both of these sets would have a good card count to go with. The temporal would be very skewed towards clay and silver (maybe white as well), but the Legacy Rares would be the fix for that.

I would hope LRs don't count as reprints as far as format legality is concerned.

So you hope they are just cards for OCD collectors to get? If they aren't going to be considered cards that count towards a "new facing" set rotation, what is the point of them?

Why did alt borders and full art cards exist (when alt borders weren't the norm)? Because they're cool, people collect them, and enjoy playing with "special" versions of cards. If you count LRs as format legality functional reprints, you vastly limit the pool of cards you can print LRs from. Just from this batch of LRs alone I would be quite disappointed to see Hopper and Wanderer legal in a post rotation world.

I know Redemption isn't other games and doesn't have to do things the same way, but MtG does something essentially the same as LRs (called Masterpieces) that are old reprints in updated, fancy form. These are purely cosmetic reprints for collectors and those who want to flair out their decks in older formats where the cards are already legal. They do not affect legality of the card in any MtG format. MtG is a big company that makes a lot of decisions based on how they affect sales (As a large business has to) and making these Masterpieces legal in more formats would quite a big incentive to buy more packs but they still decided against it since it's worse for the game.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #8 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:06:43 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 02:05:03 PM

Just from this batch of LRs alone I would be quite disappointed to see Hopper and Wanderer legal in a post rotation world.

Why?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #9 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:08:15 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on May 07, 2018, 02:06:43 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 02:05:03 PM
Just from this batch of LRs alone I would be quite disappointed to see Hopper and Wanderer legal in a post rotation world.
Why?

Hopper because it's an extremely low opportunity cost speed card and Wanderer because it's pretty much mandatory to run in any competitive deck. Set rotation is supposed to reduce speed and remove auto-includes and each of these cards contradicts that.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #10 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:12:20 PM »

Quote from: Four_Corners5 on May 07, 2018, 02:09:41 PM

I thought this article already stated that if Set Rotation ever becomes a thing that Legacy Rares would give them a head start to reprint cards they want to keep in the game.

http://landofredemption.com/?p=7560

If they want to reprint a certain old card they can just simply include it in the packs as if it were a new card in the set. They shouldn't be related to the LR program.

The Guardian · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:17:10 PM »

Quote from: Four_Corners5 on May 07, 2018, 02:09:41 PM

I thought this article already stated that if Set Rotation ever becomes a thing that Legacy Rares would give them a head start to reprint cards they want to keep in the game.

http://landofredemption.com/?p=7560

This is correct.

NathanW · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:21:16 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 07, 2018, 02:17:10 PM

Quote from: Four_Corners5 on May 07, 2018, 02:09:41 PM
I thought this article already stated that if Set Rotation ever becomes a thing that Legacy Rares would give them a head start to reprint cards they want to keep in the game.

http://landofredemption.com/?p=7560

This is correct.

That doesn't mean that they wouldn't also be included in the “Legacy Set” so they are officially in the current rotation

(probably with standard art layout so they aren't special like LRs)

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #13 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:23:27 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 07, 2018, 02:17:10 PM

Quote from: Four_Corners5 on May 07, 2018, 02:09:41 PM
I thought this article already stated that if Set Rotation ever becomes a thing that Legacy Rares would give them a head start to reprint cards they want to keep in the game.

http://landofredemption.com/?p=7560

This is correct.

I'm curious why it was decided to go that route instead of mixing functional reprints in with the new cards. I feel like by combining them you either hamstring the LR program by limiting the LR candidate pool or you counteract the benefits of set rotation by reintroducing cards like Hopper.

The Guardian · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:45:20 PM »

Hopper has never been a card that has skewed the meta by any stretch of the imagination. Some players don't even feel it's worth running because it decreases the chances of being able to make the "who goes first" decision and it often proves worthless if the player tends to use Ends and Lawless on their own deck. While Wanderer is a LS that goes in nearly all my T1 decks, I have never felt it's a card that has been a game-changer (and its necessity has been lessened by the banning of Liner).

While we don't have a finalized list of what will or won't be considered for a Legacy Rare card, we know in general what kind of cards we will consider (and likewise what cards won't be considered).

kariusvega · « **Reply #15 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:47:41 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 07, 2018, 02:45:20 PM

we know in general what kind of cards we will consider

*Crosses fingers*
Warrior's Simeon, Warrior's Simeon, Warrior's Simeon

Ironisaac · « **Reply #16 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:48:52 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 07, 2018, 02:45:20 PM

Hopper has never been a card that has skewed the meta by any stretch of the imagination. Some players don't even feel it's worth running because it decreases the chances of being able to make the "who goes first" decision and it often proves worthless if the player tends to use Ends and Lawless on their own deck. While Wanderer is a LS that goes in nearly all my T1 decks, I have never felt it's a card that has been a game-changer (and its necessity has been lessened by the banning of Liner).

I personally have never played either of those cards in my T1 decks, and I don't plan on doing so this year. They just aren't that amazing IMO.

Daniel · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2018, 02:55:36 PM »

In addition to legacy rares, what about a yearly core set? It would require little development or playtesting for Cactus, so it would be a good way to earn money (for Redemption marketing

)

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2018, 03:00:33 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 07, 2018, 02:45:20 PM

Hopper has never been a card that has skewed the meta by any stretch of the imagination. Some players don't even feel it's worth running because it decreases the chances of being able to make the "who goes first" decision and it often proves worthless if the player tends to use Ends and Lawless on their own deck. While Wanderer is a LS that goes in nearly all my T1 decks, I have never felt it's a card that has been a game-changer (and its necessity has been lessened by the banning of Liner).

While we don't have a finalized list of what will or won't be considered for a Legacy Rare card, we know in general what kind of cards we will consider (and likewise what cards won't be considered).

I agree they don't singlehandedly change the format and I agree that Hopper isn't an auto include anymore and I likely won't be running it at all. My concern is about it contributing to consistency creep in a post rotation world.

Wandered definitely isn't a game-changer or ban worthy, but it is a card I can't ever justify cutting. It's one less decision that has to be made when deck building.

Quote from: Ironisaac on May 07, 2018, 02:48:52 PM

I personally have never played either of those cards in my T1 decks, and I don't plan on doing so this year. They just aren't that amazing IMO.

Hopper I agree isn't good in this card pool but Wanderer is amazing. It's been an auto include for me and my playground even before O.T. souls were good and now it's even better.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2018, 03:05:24 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 03:00:33 PM

Quote from: Ironisaac on May 07, 2018, 02:48:52 PM
I personally have never played either of those cards in my T1 decks, and I don't plan on doing so this year. They just aren't that amazing IMO.

Hopper I agree isn't good in this card pool but Wanderer is amazing. It's been an auto include for me and my playground even before O.T. souls were good and now it's even better.

Really? I'd say Hopper is much better than wanderer, especially now that the NT "when placed in territory" souls are no longer meta. That was the only reason i liked wanderer, so I could get additional uses out of an Open Hand or Destruction soul.

Red · « **Reply #20 on:** May 07, 2018, 03:06:15 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on May 07, 2018, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 03:00:33 PM
Quote from: Ironisaac on May 07, 2018, 02:48:52 PM
I personally have never played either of those cards in my T1 decks, and I don't plan on doing so this year. They just aren't that amazing IMO.

Hopper I agree isn't good in this card pool but Wanderer is amazing. It's been an auto include for me and my playground even before O.T. souls were good and now it's even better.
Really? I'd say Hopper is much better than wanderer, especially now that the NT "when placed in territory" souls are no longer meta. That was the only reason i liked wanderer, so I could get additional uses out of an Open Hand or Destruction soul.

"when placed in territory" NT souls are better than anything in FoM imo.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #21 on:** May 07, 2018, 03:10:52 PM »

Quote from: Red on May 07, 2018, 03:06:15 PM

"when placed in territory" NT souls are better than anything in FoM imo.

Bobbert · « **Reply #22 on:** May 07, 2018, 03:12:43 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 03:10:52 PM

Quote from: Red on May 07, 2018, 03:06:15 PM
"when placed in territory" NT souls are better than anything in FoM imo.

Covet is fantastic.
Do you know why Covet is fantastic? Because it steals your opponent's Dull.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #23 on:** May 07, 2018, 03:16:38 PM »

Quote from: Bobbert on May 07, 2018, 03:12:43 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 03:10:52 PM
Quote from: Red on May 07, 2018, 03:06:15 PM
"when placed in territory" NT souls are better than anything in FoM imo.

Covet is fantastic.
Do you know why Covet is fantastic? Because it steals your opponent's Dull.

Yep! Or wander their Dull away and covet their imitate and imitate their lawless every turn. I may get proven wrong once I start actually playing but just from looking at the new cards I don't see how straight O.T. souls is anything but the best soul lineup.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #24 on:** May 07, 2018, 03:18:25 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 03:16:38 PM

Quote from: Bobbert on May 07, 2018, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 07, 2018, 03:10:52 PM
Quote from: Red on May 07, 2018, 03:06:15 PM
"when placed in territory" NT souls are better than anything in FoM imo.

Covet is fantastic.
Do you know why Covet is fantastic? Because it steals your opponent's Dull.

Yep! Or wander their Dull away and covet their imitate and imitate their lawless every turn. I may get proven wrong once I start actually playing but just from looking at the new cards I don't see how straight O.T. souls is anything but the best soul lineup.

What if they are playing all OT, like you?

Ultimately, my problem is that the OT souls only work extremely well with other OT souls. I would prefer to splash my souls with both OT an NT for a truly formidable line up, but it seems that they have done a good job this year of making sure OT and NT souls stay separate.

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Author Topic: Set Rotation food for thought (Read 19175 times)

kariusvega

Daniel