Author Topic: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?) (Read 8229 times)

megamanlan · « **on:** July 10, 2018, 03:47:59 PM »

I’ve been kicking this idea around a bit of which is better for a Defense for Flood Survivors: Antideluvians or Animals.

Advantages of Antideluvians:
- Adam makes them easy to drop from Reserve
- They recur easily
- They recur their Enhancements
- they make clearing Adam/Eve for ANB easier
- Can make the Flood regardless of protection (although a Soul can do this too)
- Tubal-Cain can grab Pitch & Gopher Wood If I need it quickly.

Advantages of Animals:
- New Genesis card’s can search them
- LOTS of chump blocks
- Leviathan & Behemoth can be protected from Opponent’s Dom’s CBN.
- Esau the Hunter is a strong searcher for Animals
- The Serpent... just the Serpent...
- Nebuchadnezzar

Disadvantages of Antideluvians:
- Most Antideluvians are kinda unlikely to get Initiative from that most are flat out huge and the small ones kinda don’t want to be in battle
- Lots of Discarding to get what you need which can backfire.
- The Flood can REALLY wreck your ability to recur your stuff which becomes a problem.
- Most of Pale Green’s Interrupts/Negates are for themes (Like Assyrians or Magicians). The next best Itb (excluding 2k Horses) is a battlefield wipe
- The battlewinners you’ll usually pull off will tend to be DoU or Achan’s Sin...

Disadvantages of Animals:
- While the chump blocks are cool, the rest of the Animals come in at mediocre at best (*cough* Bear *cough*)
- Animals have an issue if they have to actually fight a battle (and not just use hit & run tactics) as most will be playing out of SI.
- Your Animals will die a lot which means if you are in a longer game you could just run out of defense.
- A lot of battlewinners that animals can use mostly delay Heroes and don’t get rid of most of them (except by some of the Animals’ own abilities)

So I’ve been considering a possible way to mix them or which is better. What do you guys think? Animals, Antideluvians or both?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2018, 04:03:57 PM »

I haven't tested the new animal stuff, but i have run the new antediluvian stuff, and let me tell you, they are SO MUCH better than they used to be! Controversial opinion, but i don't think you need continuous evil or corrupt people to make a viable Antediluvian defense, especially if you are running noah anyways. Use the Lamech/zillah core with the flood and DoU in reserve. those shouldn't be your main battle winners, as there are so many good things PG can do before you have to resort to those. also, the serpent works in both decks.

Bobbert · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2018, 04:34:02 PM »

I'm trying out a Flood Survivor deck that's... well, not really antediluvian, but Pale Green nonetheless.

This list actually hits more of the advantages you list for animals than ADs, since A) it runs full FS unity, so no Adam/Eve, B) it's more generic pale green, so it doesn't recur and C) it runs Firefoxes and Two By Two in main deck with Serpent and Behemoth in reserve.
I do think full ADs are viable this year - some of their new cards are incredible. That said, I think that if you're running flood survivors you can make an argument for Nimrod either way, with Nebby or Survivor being other targets. I went into this deck planning to run ADs with the Nimrod/AS/ASA package, but ended up trimming out most of the unique ADs.

I agree with Isaac that the full recursion isn't really necessary. Flood Survivors set up so quickly you can often power through early, and ANB lets you just go back to that phase of the game once they do get set up. On that note, I think that between Flood, Faith of Noah (if you run it) and Shem it's often ideal to try not to play many evil cards down.

I would like to point out that PG has a new negate in Did God Really Say?. I use it almost exclusively in battle, unless there's something I really need to negate before I attack. I haven't had much issue with evil negates (yet) while testing this - in fact, I think if anything my current list needs an extra evil battlewinner.

On the other end of the spectrum, my brother's been trying out animals. He hasn't gotten them refined, but he's got them to a point where they're annoying (but not impassable).

megamanlan · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2018, 04:55:03 PM »

Quote from: Bobbert on July 10, 2018, 04:34:02 PM

I'm trying out a Flood Survivor deck that's... well, not really antediluvian, but Pale Green nonetheless.

This list actually hits more of the advantages you list for animals than ADs, since A) it runs full FS unity, so no Adam/Eve, B) it's more generic pale green, so it doesn't recur and C) it runs Firefoxes and Two By Two in main deck with Serpent and Behemoth in reserve.
I do think full ADs are viable this year - some of their new cards are incredible. That said, I think that if you're running flood survivors you can make an argument for Nimrod either way, with Nebby or Survivor being other targets. I went into this deck planning to run ADs with the Nimrod/AS/ASA package, but ended up trimming out most of the unique ADs.

I agree with Isaac that the full recursion isn't really necessary. Flood Survivors set up so quickly you can often power through early, and ANB lets you just go back to that phase of the game once they do get set up. On that note, I think that between Flood, Faith of Noah (if you run it) and Shem it's often ideal to try not to play many evil cards down.

I would like to point out that PG has a new negate in Did God Really Say?. I use it almost exclusively in battle, unless there's something I really need to negate before I attack. I haven't had much issue with evil negates (yet) while testing this - in fact, I think if anything my current list needs an extra evil battlewinner.

On a bit of a different spectrum, my brother's been trying out animals. He hasn't gotten them refined, but he's got them to a point where they're annoying but not impassable.

Honestly I am running Did God Really Say? And liking it a lot. The issue that I tend to run into with AD is unless I’m just going with Tubal-Cain or a small char I’m probably not playing a battle winner as I don’t have inish to play. Also it sounds like your playing more of Assyrians (which have their strengths too. ASA will always be a MAJOR pain no matter what format until we go basically to a character exclusive format which will probably never happen)

The thing is even beyond Fire Foxes cards like Firey Serpents, Lions, Wayward Sheep even Wild Dogs can be a chump block if you have only NT Souls. Animals main thing has always been either hit & run/die or drop giant beaters that you can’t hope to stop except by an SA. (Then they drop a FBTN card and you watch Leviathan or Behemoth just eat your heroes...)

I might try Nimrod though... even if Nebu is currently in my Side not main.

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2018, 06:43:56 PM »

Neither...the best defense with Flood Survivors is Magicians...just ask Bobbert

Either way, Forbidden Fruit and Blame Shifting should be on the list of Pros for ADs.

megamanlan · « **Reply #5 on:** July 11, 2018, 12:10:56 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 10, 2018, 06:43:56 PM

Neither...the best defense with Flood Survivors is Magicians...just ask Bobbert

Either way, Forbidden Fruit and Blame Shifting should be on the list of Pros for ADs.

Honestly I was confused when I saw a redirect on a recent card... was redirect finally fixed?

The Guardian · « **Reply #6 on:** July 11, 2018, 03:01:58 AM »

Redirect wasn't really broken, it was just often misunderstood because the two earliest cards (Treachery of Jezebel and Counsel of Abigail) made it seem like it did something it did not do.

megamanlan · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2018, 05:35:02 AM »

I’m meaning how it was confusing before (like harm & defeat was). The whole thing of redirecting cards that specify an alignment and if that flips and all that weird stuff.

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2018, 10:45:33 AM »

Redirect never changes the ability, it only changes who carries out the effect.

If your opponent is attacking and plays a GE that says "Discard an EC" and you play a card to redirect it, you get to choose the EC to discard (it doesn't change to "Discard a Hero.")

megamanlan · « **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2018, 01:27:25 PM »

Yea, that was what the first 2 cards with Redirect didn’t say... and caused a LOT of confusion.

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2018, 11:59:08 PM »

While we were testing FoM I tried both animals and Antediluvians with the FS offense. I didn't take the time to fine tune either of them but had a build specifically meant for testing. My take on the two is that the Antediluvians are better.

Last week at our local tournament we had a few people using strong Antediluvian defenses, including the guy who took 2nd place (had a nail bitting 4-5 loss vs the winner). The 2nd place defense seemed fine tuned and really strong!!

megamanlan · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2018, 01:26:26 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 11, 2018, 11:59:08 PM

While we were testing FoM I tried both animals and Antediluvians with the FS offense. I didn't take the time to fine tune either of them but had a build specifically meant for testing. My take on the two is that the Antediluvians are better.

Last week at our local tournament we had a few people using strong Antediluvian defenses, including the guy who took 2nd place (had a nail bitting 4-5 loss vs the winner). The 2nd place defense seemed fine tuned and really strong!!

What was he running?

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Author Topic: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?) (Read 8229 times)

megamanlan

Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

Ironisaac

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

Bobbert

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

megamanlan

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

The Guardian

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

megamanlan

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

The Guardian

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

megamanlan

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

The Guardian

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

megamanlan

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

Gabe

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)

megamanlan

Re: Antideluvians vs Animals (or Both?)