Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Several points:

1) My apologies to Andrew and Alex for not providing the decklist previous to their podcast; I wasn't sure if I wanted to share it or not, but since they gave me a shout out anyway (and gave me a pretty awesome name for the deck) I figured I'd share it.

2) The strategy (in case it's not obvious) is to discard/force draw the opponent's deck, then go in with WS ftw. Surprisingly, the only time I got close to timing out was in Rd 4, when I was playing a turtlish 63 card Abom deck with an Angels offense (i.e. a Chamber offense that can upset WSs strategy towards end game). However, I still won with about 5 minutes left (though it was a crazy game that I would have lost next turn). Otherwise, my opponent usually decked out in 6-10 turns, and I didn't see any Golgotha (my only tech for that is Sing and Praise). I do have a few actual battle winners, in case I run into a random Haman's Gallows or something like that, but I didn't on Saturday.

3) There are a few cards I would probably replace, two of them would be Unknown Nation and Besieging the City. Unknown Nation is great, but even I use Nazareth (because everyone probably should) so it's pretty situational. I probably use it just as much for the 0/6 on KoT then for its ability. I did use it twice during the tournament, but I still would have won both games without it. I thought Besieging the City would be nice in case I could pull off the Mayhem combo, and to stall for a turn, but I realized that I don't like restricting my opponent's draw (since it slows them down). I used it once for its ability, and probably three times for Herod's Temple. Of course, the one time I did use it, I would have lost on the following turn, so one extra rescue may have made the difference. I guess I do have to give it some props.

4) Strife is unbelievably underrated. I used it once to block Aaron after retreating Moses, once to block a hapless James SoA after retreating Thaddeus, and once to stop a Ruth offense band (yep, you read that right. A Ruth/Judges offense that I played first round was somewhat effective, as the recurrable withdraw enhancements that can't be insteaded by HT were actually pretty good against my defense). I obviously like it for combo with HAII, but I think it is almost as effective as CM vs. a lot of decks. I probably got just as many if not more blocks with Strife than with CM.

5) I didn't hit any great cards with any of my deck discard stuff (probably AotL was the best card, but it is often not effective vs. this deck anyway) but I did discard probably 5-6 Heroes from a FBTNB deck that I faced off the top of my 2nd round opponent's deck (including two of his FBTN characters). Otherwise, it just helped to thin the deck out.

6) I felt it was necessary to put Ahimaaz, Kidron and Kerith Ravine in the deck for fear of CwD, but I never saw it, and never used Kidron Valley at all. Ahimaaz is still nice to see my opponent's hand, but I might try to find a more effective method of getting rid of CwD

I might pull together a report of the tournament, but likely not until after MW Regionals next weekend, as certain people, like Nathan, wouldn't want me to share their decklists, but the reports are never as good that way. My loss to Nathan was partially due to his early Mayhem, partially due to my awful draw (I drew one of my ECs in the 4 turns that the game lasted) and mostly due to the fact that his deck is wicked fast. Anyone who likes is free to use, modify, or laugh at the deck for any upcoming tournaments (which for most of the country outside of the MW is Nationals).

Only 13 ECs in a 70 - that would explain the bad draw. I used to run 13 in a 56 defense heavy deck and I still hit a couple games where no ECs came out and I lost quickly.

Kirk

Agreed, and if you look at the EC's, almost none of them can do anything by themselves (Gen Egyptians and even most of the Herods need backup in the form of more characters or battle winners).

I think you are thinking of Stalks of Flax not Wash Basin. Wash Basin kills evil off the bottom of deck.

Why would you no have Laver in a Defensive heavy. It is a must in all turtles for cycling.

Gifts is almost a must add for Turtles as you need to be able to keep up with fast offenses. I am also suprised you don't have Golden Cheribum. I know most top players use it but still its one card and if they can't draw into it because of Golden Cheribum its that much harder to get.

I wouldn't take out the discard stuff as it a has great synergy with Watchful Servant and can cripple most decks

I am not sure why you have Water Jar in there I don't think a 1:1 is a good idea in a 70 card deck. I would cut WatW MTM and Edict too, I agree with the other Prof.

Interesting ideas. Here is my reasoning for including the cards you suggest removing:

Deck Size:
70 is my usual standard for defense-heavy, and I have found that 63 just doesn't give me enough power. I think as long as I have enough speed in it to keep things moving, the extra 6 cards really do help. But I could take a look and see what I could take out.

LSs:
-I probably agree on the NT only, and I could try FRP, but I really don't think it is all that helpful in this deck, TBH. In order for it to be useful, it really has to be my only LS available when it is drawn, which won't be too common, and then it only lasts for a turn. I might try to replace it with Rejoice instead, which gives me that extra bit of speed (and my opponent that extra bit of forced drawing). Otherwise, I like the Site Doubler idea.
-As for Site Guard, I used it for successful blocks in at least 3 of my 5 wins, and the other 2 I had it ready to go but never needed to use it. It would take a lot of convincing for me to cut it.

Artifacts:
-Hobbit is right on Wash Basin, you were thinking of Stalks of Flax. Stalks is one of my favorite cards ever, but it clearly wouldn't belong in this deck. Wash Basin, however, is nice to help discard evil cards (especially cards like Invoking Terror, which can really slow me down during end game if they've decked out faster than me...which ideally will always happen). Also as Gabe mentioned, it can combo exceptionally well with Given Over.
-Hobbit is also right on Laver. I would never play a turtle without it. In addition to helping me draw into ECs if all I have is enhancements, it also makes cards that aren't otherwise useful into speed cards (such as DoN or FA vs. a player who keeps Lampstand up all game or played Guardian, or enhancements that target humans vs. an angel deck, etc.). But most importantly, if I have my opponent locked, by WS is still in my deck, then I can slough off the rest of my defense to get him.
-Gifts was critical in one of my games vs. a Disciples offense. I drew probably 8-10 extra cards due to my opponent needing to draw to have a chance to beat my defense. I agree that GC might be a good add since it can go in the Temple, but it's a dead card as soon as I or my opponent plays Naz. And honestly, since I have to wait until the end game to get my Hero anyway, there isn't any single card in my deck that is crucial to get early.
-I think Hobbit might be right about SWJ. All it ended up doing usually was allowing me to see what cards would go back to my opponent's deck. I'll probably take it out.

Sites:
-I'm not too worried about Site lock. Firstly, CP protects EotE along with the rest of my Sites. Secondly, even without EotE, I would still have access to Gold, White, Red, and Green sites with my other sites and Heroes. And honestly, I haven't seen a good site lock deck since before Disciples. I would actually be more worried about Temple Veil not surviving than EotE, since I don't use Lampstand (I considered it, but none of my Artifacts are crucial like they are in Heroless, and I typically don't mind having to rescue 6 souls). And even if I did use Lampstand, cards like Siege Army, Fortify Site, Abimelech, and Babylonian Soldiers are just as likely to be in any site lock deck as well. All that said, EotE stays to help combat site stall (much more common, at least in my meta) as well as help me utilize the Site Guard soul (whose value is significant, as I stated above).

Deck Discard Stuff:
-I agree that some of it can probably go, but I would definitely keep Pithom and Given Over since they can be used repeatedly and don't take up hand space. I do like the double discard of Huge and Spear, as well as the double discard of Rash Oath, but I agree that none of them are really necessary.

Good Enhancements:
-I really don't have any good tech vs. Golgotha (Sing and Praise is my tech for that) or a random Persians/Heretics/Hating the Light defense (you never know). Which is why I feel like Edict and MtM as battle winners (and MtM as a forced draw + TC Convert) are useful. I would definitely keep Lay Down your Life, so that I don't have to put in Chariot and Lampstand. And lastly, the good enhancements are nice as Herod's Temple fodder in case a premature Beheaded/CM/deck discard nabs WS. I might be able to take out S&P (as it never helped me too much, and Ashtaroth Worship is probably better anyway) and Edict, but I'd probably keep the other two.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.

Would Faith as a Mustard Seed be more effective against Golgotha than Sing and Praise?

Quote from: The Guardian on July 25, 2013, 01:30:38 PM

Would Faith as a Mustard Seed be more effective against Golgotha than Sing and Praise?

If you can get them to occupy it. But then you're relying on your opponent to help you out.

Agreed. That's the problem with most anti-site cards, they require the site to be occupied.