Shadows Over Camelot expansion

[YourMathTeacher]

Has anyone played Shadows Over Camelot with the expansion Merlin's Company? I'm trying to decide whether it is worth the cost.

[Prof Underwood]

According to Schaef (who I trust with game recommendations):

It ups the player number by one, it has alternate characters for each color, who have cool new powers, there is the potential for two traitors

There is a Merlin travel deck that can move Merlin randomly around the board, so watch out for that. Though most of them do not move him, but instead have quotes from Monty Python and the Holy Grail

But beware the black deck. It will kill you. It will kill you dead, and then bludgeon your corpse with a sledgehammer.  The new white cards are kinda good, the new black cards will pull out your heart like Mola Ram and show it to you still beating as you collapse.

I think his basic analysis is that it makes the game harder, so if your group has gotten to the point that they almost always win the base game, then this is a really fun addition.

[wyatt_marcum]

Mabey we should get this Mr.Underwood. test it with the people that have played fortress America twice or something.

[YourMathTeacher]

I am necroposting to update anyone who is interested. My playgroup has been playing with the Merlin's Company expansion for a while now, and we wouldn't play without it. I will highlight the key changes, including those already alluded to in the Prof's quote from Schaef:

1. There is an 8th knight, orange, that allows for an additional player (my group plays with all eight).
2. The 8th player requires the additional Traitor card, so that there may be two total Traitors.
3. Each color knight has two possible card choices, so there are fifteen different knights and abilities to choose from, but as each player picks a knight, that eliminates the other one for that color (i.e. there cannot be two blue knights).
4. Some of the new knights have awesome abilities. Sir Owain, the new Destroyer, gets to roll first when fighting a seige engine, then play his cards. Booya!
5. There must be a King Arthur now, so there is no second red knight choice.
6. Before you move to a new quest, you must draw from the Travel Deck. Half of them are safe, but the others require you to do something before you can move, otherwise your turn ends without the move. Some possibilities are to discard a pair of fight cards, discard a grail card, or fight a seige engine. This requires you to have more cards in your hand before you even think about going on a quest. There is also a Capture card that removes you from the game until another player discards a special white card as their Heroic Action to free you.
7. A couple of the Travel Deck cards bring Merlin (a separate game piece, not the white card) on the quest with you. If you are on a quest where Merlin is, then you get to draw an extra card that turn. More importantly, Merlin stays at quests that are finished. In the event that the quest is not perpetual, drawing black cards for that quest would normally put a seige engine in play, but if Merlin is at that quest, then no seige engine is placed. This is particularly helpful if you can get Merlin to the Grail or Excalibur.
8. In the event that Merlin is not at an ended quest, and a seige engine would be placed by drawing a black card from that quest, the card is now removed from the game.
9. There are new special black cards that are numbered from the Seven Witches. These are particularly destructive, especially the ones that are permanent cards that remain in play (unless a white card removes them). If you thought Morgan was bad, you need to meet the witches. 
10. There are new special white cards that are extremely helpful, including one that moves Merlin. I also really like the new "wild" fight cards that can be any number from 1-5. I'm sure you know how useful those can be. 

If anyone has any questions about the expansion, let me know.

[Prof Underwood]

Thanks for this update YMT.  It's good to know more about this expansion.

I should also share how my group has adapted the original game at this point.

#1 - To win the game players must successfully complete as many different quests as there are knights playing.  This significantly increases the challenge level of the game when you are playing with large numbers of players.  To date we have NEVER been able to defeat all 7 quests when there was a traitor among the 7 knights.

#2 - We have removed all Merlin cards from the game.  This was really just a decision of conscience.  It leaves the evil magicians (Morgan, Vivian, etc.) in the black deck, but eliminates the use of Magic on the side of good, which I thought might be confusing for my young children.

#3 - We have increased the starting life points to 5.  This was basically to compensate for the lack of Merlin cards, which also makes the game significantly more challenging.

[YourMathTeacher]

I'll discuss the optional rules that you use, especially the part about the number of quests. Do date, there has never been a desire to fight the dragon. We did try it once, using "Call for Help" to get all the knights there, but we still lost miserably.

The only "house rule" we use is that if someone makes a false accusation of the traitor, and there are no swords on the Round Table, then it adds a black sword. We wanted to make sure that there was a penalty for guessing wrong, which also makes it harder to draw out the Traitor early in the game.

FWIW, in some old manuscripts, Merlin was just a wise advisor to the king, not a magician. Also note that Moses carried a staff and did pretty amazing things that the general public may perceive as magic, so not everything is what it seems. 

[soul seeker]

I'll discuss the optional rules that you use, especially the part about the number of quests. Do date, there has never been a desire to fight the dragon. We did try it once, using "Call for Help" to get all the knights there, but we still lost miserably.

This is interesting because of all our games...we have never fought the dragon either.  In fact, we try to end the dragon quickly through black cards because it gives the necessary number of swords to end the game before the catapults take over.  I think the risk to reward is to high, i.e. it doesn't offer enough white swords to make it worthwhile late game.  Another contributing factor is that by the time you can go after the dragon..the catapults are becoming a serious threat.

[YourMathTeacher]

Another contributing factor is that by the time you can go after the dragon..the catapults are becoming a serious threat.

That is why we chose Call for Help as our only attempt. We all first fought a siege engine (except the knight who was at the Dragon quest), then used Call for Help to get all the knights there, then finished the quest in one turn. But because this happened so late in the game, the Dragon cards were just too strong to beat. The Traitor (while unrevealed) had placed one of the Dragon cards and implied it was one of the lowest numbers, when it was in fact the highest number. That card alone takes out one of the triples. We didn't lose by much in the numbers, but because we lost, each knight had to go down a health point, which killed three of the knights. We had the Holy Grail, so we healed one of them, but it was definitely not worth the cost. We lost 9 white cards and two knights, plus the black swords went on the table still. We had to complete one more successful quest to win the game, which we did, but the memory of losing to the dragon still lingers.... 

BTW, some other new special white cards:

1. End the next tie as a win for the knights - we save this one for the end of the game, just in case there is a tie in swords.
2. End either the Pict or Saxon Wars in a truce - all cards and figures removed

[Prof Underwood]

there has never been a desire to fight the dragon. We did try it once, using "Call for Help" to get all the knights there, but we still lost miserably.

Yeah, defeating the dragon is costly, and you really don't need it to simply fill up the table with more white swords.  But playing with 7 knights was just too easy for our group, so now we have to beat the dragon, which has been a fun addition.  We've done it multiple times when there wasn't a traitor, but never when there was one.

The only "house rule" we use is that if someone makes a false accusation of the traitor, and there are no swords on the Round Table, then it adds a black sword. We wanted to make sure that there was a penalty for guessing wrong, which also makes it harder to draw out the Traitor early in the game.

I've always felt like it's painful enough that you have to have 6 siege engines down already before accusing someone.  That way even if you find the traitor, they are half-way to killing you with sieges.  Lately we've been preferring to simply let the traitor be, and just try to finish with enough white swords to win anyway.

FWIW, in some old manuscripts, Merlin was just a wise advisor to the king, not a magician. Also note that Moses carried a staff and did pretty amazing things that the general public may perceive as magic

The difference was that Moses told everyone that the power behind everything he did was from God.  I'm just not sure that I want my kids to play games where they use some power besides God to do supernatural things.  I'm not saying that everyone should have these same convictions.  I'm just trying to follow the Spirit personally on this.

[YourMathTeacher]

Yeah, defeating the dragon is costly, and you really don't need it to simply fill up the table with more white swords.

The problem comes when the Traitor is not revealed, and they can make a false accusation, which would change three white swords to black. Two of the new special black cards add to that by 1.) adding an additional black sword to the next lost quest, and 2.) changing an additional white sword to black for a false accusation. Therefore, the Traitor(s) could change four white swords to black just after the Dragon wins, which would have added three black swords by itself (assuming both the witches were in play). That's an instant win for the Traitor(s), which is why we sometimes need to fight the dragon.

But playing with 7 knights was just too easy for our group, so now we have to beat the dragon, which has been a fun addition.  We've done it multiple times when there wasn't a traitor, but never when there was one.

The addition of a second Traitor will alleviate the "easy" part for your group. 

I've always felt like it's painful enough that you have to have 6 siege engines down already before accusing someone.

Placing 6 siege engines is inevitable, even early on. I don't find that to be a penalty at all.

Lately we've been preferring to simply let the traitor be, and just try to finish with enough white swords to win anyway.

We usually do, as well, but the Travel Deck and witches make that more difficult.

The difference was that Moses told everyone that the power behind everything he did was from God.  I'm just not sure that I want my kids to play games where they use some power besides God to do supernatural things.

I don't believe there is anything in Shadows that would require Merlin to be supernatural. He simply fights evil with wise counsel.

I'm not saying that everyone should have these same convictions.  I'm just trying to follow the Spirit personally on this.

I understand your position, I just think you are taking one interpretation of Merlin, rather than any other. Merlin is most known as a wizard because of popular culture, but he was not always depicted that way in lore. In some manuscripts, Camelot was a Christian realm, and Merlin was a spiritual advisor. That is where the Holy Grail legends start, and why a 10-Commandment sin like adultery is what brought the kingdom down.

[Prof Underwood]

Merlin is most known as a wizard because of popular culture, but he was not always depicted that way in lore.

I also see where you're coming from, and I wish this alternative version of Merlin was more well known.  If it were I would feel better about playing with him in the game and simply telling my kids that we were using that interpretation.  But unfortunately the wizard version of Merlin is so dominant that at this point I would just feel like I was grasping at straws to rationalize something just because I wanted it to be that way.  I'm not saying that you or anyone else is stretching things too far.  I'm just saying that I personally would feel that way.

[YourMathTeacher]

As a final thought to this thread, I had started it trying to decide if it was worth the cost, because it did not seem like there was much you were getting for the money. I ended up paying $20 on eBay for the Merlin's Company expansion. In the box you get the Merlin figure, the orange knight figure, orange die for health counter, 8 new knight reference cards (one of each original color except red, and two orange) with abilities/names that are different than the originial, a small stack of new white cards, a small stack of new black cards, a new stack of Loyal/Traitor cards that has two Traitors, and the Travel Deck.

The additions to the game were definitely worth the cost for my playgroup. I would compare it to playing the base version of Settlers of Catan versus playing with one (or more) expansions. Once you have expanded, it is difficult to go back to playing just the original. This expansion, in particular, offers so much variety to the gameplay. If you are a Shadows Over Camelot player, and you are looking to make the game more interesting and sometimes more challenging, then I highly recommend the Merlin's Company expansion. 

[Prof Underwood]

Thanks again for this review.  If I can find a good deal on the expansion someday I'd probably pick it up