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Author Topic: Complex Cascade Negate  (Read 1801 times)

Offline Minion of Jesus

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Complex Cascade Negate
« on: June 02, 2015, 02:12:32 PM »
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So, I play Evil armor, which reveals Persistent Pestering which I then play with Evil Armor's ability. I put Persistent Pestering beneath my deck, and my opponent follows through. Then, my opponent negates Evil Armor. What happens?

Evil Armor: Interrupt the battle and reveal the bottom card of draw pile. If it is an evil card, take it into hand. You may play the next Enhancement.

Persistent Pestering: Opponent must underdeck 2 good cards from hand. You may underdeck this card.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2015, 02:15:36 PM »
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Everything that happened as a result of that card is cascade-negated.

Persistent Pestering 'returns' to the bottom of your deck (where it was before you pulled it out).

Persistent Pestering is cascade-negated, meaning those two cards placed under deck are returned to your opponent's hand.
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kariusvega

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2015, 02:20:58 PM »
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i thought play abilities are cannot be interrupted?
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Offline Minion of Jesus

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2015, 02:31:11 PM »
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Eesh. That is a pain. Good thing no CBNs were involved...
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2015, 02:52:45 PM »
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Play is CBN, though reveal-and-take is not, and there have been other rulings regarding draw that I am pulling upon.  There are some complex rulings involved here that I think need to be worked out among the Elders because of things like this that will be confusing to players (and Elders, frankly) due to consistency concerns.
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kariusvega

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 03:09:41 PM »
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yeah so if persistent pestering was played by the play ability on evil armor don't the cards persistent pestering under decked stay under? just wondering cause i really like to know these kinds of details! i didn't even know play abilities were cbn until maybe a month ago! thanks a lot Redoubter!!
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kariusvega

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 03:12:46 PM »
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oh sorry and aren't play abilities cannot be interrupted (not cbn) since samuel and other cards can negate them before they happen?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2015, 03:15:40 PM »
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Play abilities are CBI, meaning that you cannot negate/interrupt the play ability to indirectly negate the card that was played.

What can happen, like in this instance, since Evil Armor also has a reveal and add to hand ability, is that you can negate the reveal and add to hand. Undoing that will indirectly negate the card that was revealed and added to hand if you played it afterwards.
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browarod

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2015, 03:19:43 PM »
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Quote from: Gabe on June 02, 2015, 03:15:40 PM
Undoing that will indirectly negate the card that was revealed and added to hand if you played it afterwards.
....unless that card itself is CBN. :P

I'm thinking cascade negates might make a good topic for a Real Rulings video. ;)
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Offline Josh

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2015, 06:09:03 PM »
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This situation is, in essence, the same as "Draw 2/play the next enhancement" cascade negate questions.  Despite Play abilities ruled to be intrinsically CBI, and therefore unable to be negated via direct negation, they can somehow be indirectly negated if the card played was gained with the Draw 2 ability.

This makes no sense to me; CBI is CBI.  So in this case, I'd rule that if ONLY Evil Armor is negated, everything cascade-negates that isn't CBI.  Play abilities are CBI, so you can't undo the "playing" of Persistent Pestering.  Thus, I'd rule that PP remains in battle, since it was played via a Play ability, and therefore is not undone.  However, INE, so you'll have to go with what Gabe and Redoubter rule. 

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I'd really like this to be changed.  Are all Elders really in agreement that CBI abilities (or at least Play abilities) can be indirectly negated?  I have another example I'd like to pose, but I'll make a separate thread for it.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2015, 06:52:53 PM »
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Didn't see this before I posted in the other thread, but I actually agree with you, though from the looks of things that may not be the majority opinion. I do believe that if a card enters play by a CBI/N ability, even if that card came from deck as the result of a negated draw/search, then it should stay in play.

It certainly at least should merit a discussion of the Elders, though since the situations described here and in the other thread are pretty rare, it may not be a high priority discussion with everything else going on. Hopefully there can be a logical resolution soon though.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Complex Cascade Negate
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 07:05:01 PM »
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The current rule is that cards that are CBI/N do stay in play, though it is less clear about cards with only parts being CBI/N or how this remains consistent with other rulings.

This is a discussion we should have (schedule a talk?).
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